adam & eve

by gotcha 126 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  pomegranate

  >>Now that you have twisted the meaning of the first part of that verse so that the "JEWISH SCRIBES " are now making this statement. Would you care to twist the second part of that verse now? Or, are we to understand that the "JEWISH SCRIBES" are now making the statement for the protection of Jesus?
  I'm Curious to see how the meaning of the phrase "out of his mind" is going to change to suit your desire to believe whatever you would like.<<

  It has nothing to do with me twisting. It has to do with me examining a disputed text closer while I let you watch me. You should be glad to know what you have just been shown...

  First, I believed the "family" as portrayed in SOME Bibles (like the NIV, which I refer to often) was Jesus actual blood relatives trying to protect him by claiming he was mad. But, I found out that CAN'T be true because Mary and Jesus brothers HAD NOT YET arrived until verse 31. (Go see for yourself.) So this "family" CAN'T be Mary and his brothers because the blood family wasn't there yet. Check it out.

  So, I began to look at other translations and noticed that some had FAMILY, some had FRIENDS some had PEOPLE. That's when the flag went up. There is NO Greek word that encompasses that much variation.

  Then I looked at the Greek manuscripts and found that NONE of those words (family, people, friends) are in the Greek AT ALL. NOT A ONE. Then, examining the Greek, I find that "para" is not even a noun, it is a prepostion. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a prepostion to be a noun ANYTIME. In ANY language.

  Then I looked at the surrounding context in light of who this word "Para" could be meaning, and the truth was obvious. "His own [people]" meant the JEWISH (Jesus was a Jew member??) scribes who were not even there yet. They were in Jerusalem and left upon hearing of Jesus actions to TAKE CHARGE of him. Then, the following paragraph shows the JEWISH scribes arriving and claiming him to be possesed and of Satan.

  Mary and the Fam don't show up til verse 31.

  That's the truth and that puts you and Joe's suppostion in the hopper.

  Nite nite. ;)
• 

  pseudoxristos

  pomegranate,

  I will be glad to know if the you believe "JEWISH SCRIBES" are protecting or insulting Jesus in this verse.
• 

  pseudoxristos

  Joe,

  I have been trying to figure out why Mark would present Jesus in such manner. One possible explanation I was considering was that Mark, had the job of writing about something that was very significant and everyone should have already been aware of it. The Christ he wrote about was not exactly like the Christ that everyone expected. He therefore had to present Jesus in manner that would explain the general lack of knowledge about him among his own people. In other words, Mark is saying, The good news is, Christ came, here is what happened and not many knew of it.
• 

  RWC

  Pom, you and I will have to agree to disagree. I trust the Bible when it says that we have free will and the ability to choose Christ or reject him. Obviously God knows what choice we will make, but to say that the choice is predestined only for a few chosen is to say that we are the puppets of God and that the notion of free will is nothing more than a cosmic joke. True God has control over our lives and can do with us as he pleases for his own purposes, but the Bible is clear that we have the choice to accept Christ or not. We have the responsibility to spread the Gospel to everyone because everyone, not just a chosen few, have to be given the opportunity to believe in Christ. Those who believe in him will have eternal life in heaven, those who reject him will not.

  To say that you are "hoping" that you have been chosen to do good is to say that there is no certainty in salvation. By placing your faith in Christ and making him your Lord and Savior you salavation is assured. To those who said "Lord Lord", and who will not get into heaven, Jesus was saying that he knew their heart and they truly did not believe. He was not saying, regardless of your belief I have previously rejected you so it doesn't matter. He was talking about False Prophets who are not doing the will of God he was not talking about predestined rejection. Matt. 7:21

  I am not saying that man's will is greater than God's. It obviously is not. But I do believe that in order for God to give us free will so that we are not merely his playthings, he allows us to make that choice, even though he already knows the choice we will make.

  The paln for salvation does not depend upon whether God wants it happen or not. He has already set out that plan. He reconciled us to him through Christ and those that believe in him shall have eternal life. I do not understand what you mean that only those that believe the right way will be saved. Please explain that one.

  Our free will did not come from the devil. It was a gift from God. He allows us to decide whether we will accept his plan for salvation or not. That is the choice we make. Yes we are born with original sin and we are all sinners that fall short of the glory of God. But we are reconciled through Christ and those that believe in him will get into heaven.

  By the way I would like your research on this matter.

  Joe,

  Your explaination of Mark is incorrect in an attempt to create a contradiction where one doesn't exist. First, just because mark doesn't start his Gospel with the birth of Christ doesn't mean he didn't know how it occurred or didn't care. Second, he did not create the irony for style purposes or to try and make sure that Jesus' life was lived as it was preordained. He was writing what happened as dictated to him by Peter.

  To say that Jesus did not want people to know he was the Son of God so that they would kill him and not love him is silly. He was killed because he was proclaimed to be the Son of God. He was a threat to the established religion and when he gained a following by proclaiming that he was God, he was killed. Look at Mark 6:60 and Matt. 26: 62 where Jesus is being questioned by the high priest. the priest asked him if he is the living Christ, the Son of God. When Jesus answers he is, he is accused of blashphemy and found worthy to die which could only be carried out by the Roman government.

  The irony is in the events, not in the making up of stories to fulfill scripture.

  God Bless
• 

  pomegranate

  >>I will be glad to know if the you believe "JEWISH SCRIBES" are protecting or insulting Jesus in this verse.<<

  The scribes HATED Jesus. Them saying he was out of his mind was no protection for Jesus. It was a protection for THEM. Jesus had that nasty habit of exposing the scribes and Pharisees.
• 

  pomegranate

  >>Pom, you and I will have to agree to disagree. I trust the Bible when it says that we have free will and the ability to choose Christ or reject him.<<

  Where does it say that? Christ is the one that seperates all men. Men can't seperate themselves for the good. Men seperate themselves into bad. See the world's nations and religions as a shining example.

  Another thing, this "freewill" thingy was well known to the Jews. As a matter of fact, there was a sacrifice named after that very thing. It was called a "freewill offering." The offering represented something bad (freewill) and was burned on the alter in symbol of the lie of "freewill" being destroyed. There is a simple clue in this offering that let's you know that this sacrifice represented something bad. Look at what a "FREEWILL offering" could be:

  Lev 22:23
  23 You may, however, present as a freewill offering an ox or a sheep that is deformed or stunted, but it will not be accepted in fulfillment of a vow.

  A crappy imperfect defective deformed/stunted ox or sheep representing a crappy lie (freewill), that gets totally destroyed and burned up on the alter of God. Do you believe?

  >>Obviously God knows what choice we will make, but to say that the choice is predestined only for a few chosen is to say that we are the puppets of God and that the notion of free will is nothing more than a cosmic joke.<<

  Have you read the Bible? Really? Did you skip over Romans 9?

  Rom 9:11-13
  11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad-in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls-she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

  Here you plainly have two people foreknown and predestined. Before the twins were born and had done anything good or bad, IN ORDER FOR GOD'S PURPOSE IN ELECTION (being chosen) MIGHT STAND, NOT BY WORKS...God says before they were born, before they did anything good or bad, God loved Jacob and hated Esau. Jacob was God's elect before he was born. Esau was denied election before he was born. You hate that fact huh? You feel that it is an ULTIMATE injustice. How could God do such a thing right? Is God unjust like that you would say? Well, read on bud:

  Romans 9:14,15
  14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

  "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
  and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

  See? Is God unjust for predestining ALL MEN? Just like Jacob and Esau? Paul says not at all!! Why?? Because GOD will have mercy on who HE DECIDES by whatever reason HE CHOOSES. He will have compassion on who HE DECIDES. Works, effort, or desire are MEANINGLESS. See here:

  Romans 9:16
  16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

  See? You have NO CONTROL over your ultimate destiny of life or death. It is completely and untterly under God's control and there is NOTHING...absolutely NOTHING you can do to earn LIFE. He will use people the way HE wants to display his power and glorify His name:

  Romans 9:17,18
  17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

  Here again, another man being shown to be destined for bad for God's will and purpose. He shows MERCY to whomever he chooses, and he even HARDENS people dead against Himself. ALL FOR HIS GLORY. But, someone like you says than what's the point? Puppets and a cosmic joke? Well Paul said there would be people just like you saying the exact same thing right here:

  Romans 9:19
  19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"

  Then we are puppets...Well...It is HIS WILL ALONE. You CANNOT resist His will. You ARE a pawn, a puppet a nothing. But you will still argue huh? Wimpering saying "That's not fair. That is wrong. How could he do such a thing as predestine all things?" Paul again knew you would argue like that:

  Romans 9:20,21
  20 But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'" 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

  Shall what is formed as an unchosen one (common) talk back to God and say, "Why did you make me this way?" HA!! Does not the potter have the right to make his pottery however He chooses to fit His will and purposes?? ABSOLUTELY. So, what if he did just that. Foreknowing ALL things for the Will and Purpose of Himself to show his WRATH and GLORIOUS POWER?? Huh? What if he did that friend????

  Romans 9:22-24
  22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory- 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

  Both chosen and unchosen were prepared. The unchosen for destruction. The chosen prepared IN ADVANCE for glory. That is God's truth. He is that powerful. THAT IS WHAT A UNIVERSAL SOVEREIGN means. I like being a puppet. You?

  >>True God has control over our lives and can do with us as he pleases for his own purposes, but the Bible is clear that we have the choice to accept Christ or not.<<

  See the above. You have no choice in your ultimate destiny. No one has.

  >>We have the responsibility to spread the Gospel to everyone because everyone, not just a chosen few, have to be given the opportunity to believe in Christ.<<

  Wrong. Besides, if God wants to tell someone something, he doesn't have to rely on men to do it. He'll do it Himself.

  >>Those who believe in him will have eternal life in heaven, those who reject him will not.<<

  Then you profess saved by works. Your work of believing doesn't earn you anything. Your desire doesn't earn you anything. God will do whatever the heck HE sees fit and you have no say.

  >>To say that you are "hoping" that you have been chosen to do good is to say that there is no certainty in salvation.<<

  There isn't. That's what HOPE is all about. No one hopes for what they already have.

  Rom 8:24-25
  But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? 25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

  >>By placing your faith in Christ and making him your Lord and Savior you salavation is assured.<<

  I can't make Jesus do or be anything for me nor can you. Jesus makes himself a Savior to me, I DO NOT make Jesus a Savior to me.

  >>To those who said "Lord Lord", and who will not get into heaven, Jesus was saying that he knew their heart and they truly did not believe.<<

  Of which he knew that before they were born. Just like Esau.

  >>He was not saying, regardless of your belief I have previously rejected you so it doesn't matter.<<

  Sorry. The Bible does not fit that understanding.

  >> He was talking about False Prophets who are not doing the will of God he was not talking about predestined rejection. Matt. 7:21<<

  The false prophets are as foreknown as Pharaoh and Esau was. God knows who they are. He knew them all before they were born. That is omniscience. You say He is, but you do not accept it. I say He is and I accept it 100%. There is nothing hidden.

  >>I am not saying that man's will is greater than God's. It obviously is not. But I do believe that in order for God to give us free will so that we are not merely his playthings, he allows us to make that choice, even though he already knows the choice we will make.<<

  We are his game pieces, in a very serious deadly game, whether you like it or not. . It is NOT play. This game means life and death and was brought about because of Satan. We are all predestined, because God already knows EVERTHING about EVERYTHING. So no matter what you choose, God knows it before you did it, and he knew every single choice you would make before you were born. He has the Book of Life already written. So I think you should take your freewill offering (pick something crappy now) and throw it on the alter to be burned up.

  >>The paln for salvation does not depend upon whether God wants it happen or not.<<

  It most certainly does. He wants it to happpen, and it will happen to everybody that he has chosen in advance for it to happen to. God is not a God of chance. There is no maybe, ifs or mights. The plan is laid out 100% with ALL lives accounted for, whether reconciled to be redeemed in the Book of life, or reconciled unto death.

  >>He has already set out that plan. He reconciled us to him through Christ and those that believe in him shall have eternal life. I do not understand what you mean that only those that believe the right way will be saved. Please explain that one.<<

  David Koresh.

  >>Our free will did not come from the devil.<<

  It most certainly did. Freewill comes from someone giving you another choice besides good. God gave you the choice of good as he creates only good. Satan gave you the choice of bad as he created all that's bad. Bad comes from the devil, that is your only other "choice" and bad is NO CHOICE AT ALL in the eyes of God because it is going to be destroyed. Good shall remain. Once bad is destroyed for good, the lie "freewill" will be totally destroyed because you will have no other choice but God and good and that's the way God planned it.

  >> It was a gift from God.<<

  Wrong. It is a lie from Satan.

  >>He allows us to decide whether we will accept his plan for salvation or not.<<

  He doesn't allow us anything. He tells you what to do. Your life isn't even yoour own, so how can you say you can make a choice regarding something that isn't even yours?

  Jer 10:23
  23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own;
  it is not for man to direct his steps.

  If freewil is truth, why does Jeremiah say it is not for man to direct his own step? Jeremiah said that because it is true.

  >> That is the choice we make.<

  Sounds like your directing youe own step. So...NOPE. You are either a Jacob or an Esau. That is NOT your choice, that is God's WIll.

  >> Yes we are born with original sin and we are all sinners that fall short of the glory of God. But we are reconciled through Christ and those that believe in him will get into heaven.<<

  I believe you are missing the mark.

  >>By the way I would like your research on this matter.<<

  If you've gotten this far, you have some of it already.
• 

  gotcha

  i'm sorry i was just able to read some parts coz i find it too long but i just wanted to put my opinion regarding free will....i think that freedom is most achieved when we do the good because that is our orientation..it is when we do the good that we realize our true selves..it is where our hearts find peace..in doing good..and another thing...BAD is not created...because God made everything good..it is when someone/something does not live up to its expectation of its being good that it is called bad...let me put a part of the article i found good regarding evil...
  "First of all, I suppose you will agree that there is no such thing as (sic) badness just as there is no such thing as redness. There are just bad things, as there are red things. You never get badness unless there is first of all something that exists that is bad, just as you never get redness unless there is first of all something to be red.
  Now what exactly are we saying when we say that a thing is bad? Here we come immediately to a difference between badness and redness. For all red things share a property in common, the property of being red. If you know what it is like for an apple to be red then you more or less know what it is like for a pencil or a nose to be red.
  But this won’t work with badness; if you know what it is like for a deckchair to be a deckchair you do not for that reason know what it is like for a grape to be a bad grape. A bad deckchair collapses when you sit down, but the fact that a grape collapses when you sit on it is not what would show it to be a bad grape.
  We call something a bad deckchair when it doesn’t come up to our expectations for deckchairs, and we call something a bad grape when it doesn’t come up to our expectations for grapes. But they are different expectations. And similarly when we say that a thing is a good grape or a good deckchair we mean that they do come up to our respective expectations for grapes and deckchairs. Goodness, like badness, is different from redness in what it is like for one thing to be good isn’t the same as what it is like for another. The fact that wine can be made from good grapes has no tendency at all to suggest that wine can be made from good deckchairs."

  another long post.
• 

  RWC

  Pom,

  We have a far different view of salvation.

  Are we not to preach the Gospel? See Mark 16:15 Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." Matt. 28:19 -20 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".

  Your interpretation of Romans 9 is taken out of context. Paul is telling the Jewish people through examples of their history that God chose the Isralites as his chosen people, which was his right. Just as it is his right to spread salvation to the Gentiles. The Jewish people believed it was wrong to preach to the Gentiles and wanted to keep Jesus to themselves. Paul was explaining that would not happen.

  Romans 10:9 says it all: That if you confess with your mouth,"Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved". You are saved by grace through your faith. Just as I said.
• 

  pomegranate

  >>We have a far different view of salvation.<<

  One is right, one is wrong. That's what justification is all about...and differences?:

  1 Cor 11:19
  19 No doubt there have to be differences among you to show which of you have God's approval.

  >>Are we not to preach the Gospel? See Mark 16:15 Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.<<

  I have read that this was told to the early congregation. I was not told by Him personally to do such a work, were you? Where does it say in order ANYONE to be saved you must go out and preach what I have said? It doesn't say that, anywhere.

  >>Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."<<

  All those chosen will do all that is right, according to what they are told.

  >>Matt. 28:19 -20 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit".<<

  That was told to the early congregation, it was NOT told to me.

  >>Your interpretation of Romans 9 is taken out of context.<<

  Oh really? If I included anymore of Romans 9, I would have had the whole chapter.

  >>Paul is telling the Jewish people through examples of their history that God chose the Isralites as his chosen people, which was his right.<<

  Paul is telling them YOU ARE POWERLESS in the face of God. ALL has been destined by Satan to die, the chosen are predestined by God to live. PROPHECY is a direct violation of YOUR freewill. Prophecy is proof that ALL THINGS are already laid out and will happen EXACTLY as God planned.

  >>Just as it is his right to spread salvation to the Gentiles. The Jewish people believed it was wrong to preach to the Gentiles and wanted to keep Jesus to themselves. Paul was explaining that would not happen.<<

  You don't even believe that. Why don't you do a verse by verse commentray just like I have done, and explain each verse according to your very vague understanding.

  >>Romans 10:9 says it all: That if you confess with your mouth,"Jesus is Lord" and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead you will be saved". You are saved by grace through your faith. Just as I said.<<

  First, the chosen sheep will do exactly that, confess and believe. That is NOT what saves. Paul makes vividly clear that it is not the WORKS of confessing and believing that save:

  Rom 11:5-6
  5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

  Eph 2:7-8
  8 For it is by grace you have been saved,

  Faith? That is given out by God. Even the ability to believe in him is given out from Him.

  Also, who is Paul's targeted audience?

  Rom 1:7
  7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints:

  So this letter is written to those called to be "saints." Though others may now have access to this letter of Paul's, the target audience has not, nor will not change. The letter was written for the ones called and chosen (who at that time, some were in Rome) and no one else, even though the unchosen can read it now, does not mean they become chosen because they can read the letter.

  It all begins with faith, and even faith is not from within, it comes from above.
• 

  JosephAlward

  As further support for my argument that Mark had Jesus keep his miracle-making secret in order that he not be arrested before Scripture was fulfilled, I offer the following three items:

  Jesus Must Die

  The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. (Mark 14:21)

  Mark thought Jesus was meant to "go" in the manner described in Scripture--following a betrayal by a friend who dipped his bread in the same bowl as Jesus. The script written in Scripture for the savior had to be followed, Mark believed. Thus, Mark had Jesus say that he would "go" in the manner described in Scripture, and that would be following a betrayal by someone close to him. Mark had Jesus admonish the ones he healed to remain silent about their miraculous healings so that the readers would understand why Jesus went so long without people finding out he was a miracle-worker and therefore the son of God.

  The Sheep Will Be Scattered

  "You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.' (Mark 14:27)

  And that’s exactly what happened when Jesus was arrested: “Then everyone deserted him and fled.” (Mark 14:50) If Jesus had let himself be discovered as the son of God prior to his betrayal by Judas and the subsequent arrest, then he would not have been arrested, and there would have been no scattering of people in fulfillment of Scripture.

  The Arrest Would Occur Only After Betrayal by a Judas

  Every day I was with you, teaching in the temple courts, and you did not arrest me. But the Scriptures must be fulfilled." (Mark 14:49)

  Jesus explained to the high priest and the crowd with him at his arrest what they would not have understood: It was preordained in the Scriptures that the son of God would be betrayed by one close to him, so the reason why the high priest didn’t have Jesus arrested earlier was cosmic in nature: He could not have arrested him earlier, since it was Jesus’ destiny to be arrested only after Judas had betrayed him.

  More On Mark's Use of Irony

  On the separate matter of Mark’s use of irony to create his fictional accounts of the life of Jesus, let me add here the additional irony that Mark has the people in Jesus’ hometown reject him as a “carpenter.”

  Isn't this the carpenter? (Mark 6:3)

  In Isaiah 44, the prophet speaks of those who fashion false gods as “carpenters” whose eyes are plastered over and who don’t understand.

  All who make idols are nothing....The carpenter ...makes a god....They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand. (Isaiah 44:9-18)

  
  If readers in this forum will search through Mark, they will find a number of examples of Jesus ridiculing those who have eyes but do not see, or have ears but do not hear, and those who do not understand. All of these references to eyes not seeing, and ears not hearing, is a reference to those whose senses do not allow them to know the true god.

  Thus, Mark has Jesus, the one who accuses others of having eyes which do not see and not understanding, is accused of having eyes which do not see and being one who does not understand. This is the best of all of Mark’s fictional ironies.

  By the way, the later gospel writer, Matthew, evidently wasn't comfortable with the notion that the son of a god was a mere carpenter (he didn't understand Mark's use of Isaiah here), so Matthew changed Mark's story and made Jesus the son of a carpenter (Matthew 13:55), not an actual carpenter himself.

  Joseph F. Alward
  "Skeptical Views of Christianity and the Bible"

  * http://members.aol.com/jalw/joseph_alward.html