I agree with some things. Most agreement for me comes in The First Main Point of Doctrine of Dordt. 2,3 and 4 Main Point I have lots of disagreement...
The other 2 pages, lots of disagreemant.
In a nutshell.
adam & eve
by gotcha 126 Replies latest watchtower bible
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pomegranate
I have no religious convictions.
I have spirtual tendencies.
I hate man made religion.
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rem
I hate man made religion
And yet you are a Christian? Sorry to burst your bubble, but Christianity is a man-made religion just like the rest of them.
rem
"We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
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pomegranate
Christianity is a God established spirtuality.
My bubble is still inflated.
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rem
Christianity is a God established spirtuality
And the evidence for this assertion...?
rem
"We all do no end of feeling, and we mistake it for thinking." - Mark Twain
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RWC
Pom.,
It is evident that when you are confronted with arguments you can't debate, you result in insults. That is childish. The truth is you have a fatalistic and extreme Calvinistic view of election that is not supported by the Bible. That is not a lie, it is the truth.
The attempt to cover up ALL men with Satan is silly. Men are born sinful, but have the ability to repent and the ability to believe and subject themselves to God's will. Satan is far different.
The main problem I have with your argument is that you are saying that God chooses some to believe and others not. That is not Biblical. Do you not think that Satan believes in God? Of course he does. He has just rejected him. If Satan turned himself around and subjected himself to God's will he could be saved, but we know he would never do that and I am not saying he ever would. He is all evil.
I do agree that people who sin against the Holy Spirit have sins that are unforgivable according to the scriptures. But a sin against the Holy Spirit is to deny Christ, the same as not believing in him.
You are adding text to the Bible when you say that how would Jesus know how much faith Peter had unless he gave it to him. He knew because he was God and was all knowing. The text does not say he knew because he gave Peter his faith in the first place.
Romans 3:11 -18 is Paul's indictment to the Jewish people that the law will not save them. Taken out of context it doesn't say what you are implying.
John 1:13 must be put in context. The verses are talking about Jesus and the verses before it say : Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God. John 1 :9 says that this is available to ALL men who believe. It is available to all, not just a chosen few.
My argument is simple: Man has the free will to chose God or not. If Man repents of his sins, choses to open his heart to God and profess his faith in him, the Holy Spirit dwells within him and he is born again. From then on the holy spirit works in his life to increase his faith and help him walk with the Lord. That repentance and willingness is an act of Man that opens the door. See Acts 2:37-38 Repent and you will receive the holy spirit.
Eph 2:4,5 - God made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions it is by grace that we are saved. This passage does not change by argument
To answer your question Gotcha, I am Roman Catholic.
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pseudoxristos
pomegranate,
Jesus often stayed for days at one place. You have a problem with that? Also, explain the "family" arriving in the same place twice.
I must have missed something. Please explain how my assertion that the family are the people in Mark 3:21, would make the "family" arrive in the same place twice.
gotcha,
I'm somewhere between agnostic and atheist. -
Abaddon
Sixteen, unless they are archangels, in which case thirteen (bigger wings).
Have you ever wondered why god has not made it clearer what the hell he is talking about. Or indeed, what religion really represents him, if anything. And by religion I mean system of beliefs, not institution.
You guys are free and welcome to debate this topic until the end of time; indeed, you could do so easily.
I don't think any of you doubts each others sincerity...
And therefore the idea that god reaches out towards those looking is contradicted; you are all looking, but you have no unity in what you believe has been revealed to you by the Holy Spigot, Spirit, sorry.
This means;
1/ God is expressing himself differently to different people.
i.e. everyone is right in their own way, and god is non-exclusive, merely wishing people to incline themselves toward him. All holy books contain some fragments of divinity.
2/ All but one opinion is wrong, but there is insufficient evidence to establish who is right.
i.e. we are all royally screwed, god is exculsive, but we don't have enough evidence to be sure what it wants.
3/ None of the holy books you or people from different faiths argue about has a shred of divine inspiration in them.
i.e. god is distant and unconcerned
4/ There is no god.
i.e. you are arguing about the dellusions of the authors who merely claimed inspiration, and are in fact striving after nothing, doing something of no greater and perhaps lesser value than discussing a play by Shakespeare.
Which do you honestly think is the answer?
People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
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pomegranate
>>It is evident that when you are confronted with arguments you can't debate, you result in insults. That is childish. The truth is you have a fatalistic and extreme Calvinistic view of election that is not supported by the Bible. That is not a lie, it is the truth.>>
Where's your grammar leasson for me? You have yet to show me a different rule of subject and predicate. And you can't.
>>The attempt to cover up ALL men with Satan is silly.<<
The scripture DOES NOT SAY ALL MEN. IT SAYS <b>ANYONE</b>. You're the one reading things into the Bible that are not there.
>>Men are born sinful, but have the ability to repent and the ability to believe and subject themselves to God's will.<<
Men have NO ability, sin can do NOTHING but sin unless God changes that HIMSELF. God chooses men that will obey. That's the way it was from the beginning. That's the way it will always be.
>>Satan is far different.<<
Satan is an "anyone." Demons are "anyone." The Pharisees were "anyones." Those DOOMED by blaspheming the Spirt are "anyone." You are incorrect. Men who NEVER stop sinning are also "anyones."
2 Peter 2:14
14 With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed-an accursed brood!So, these ones prophesied above? They can become saved? FAT CHANCE. If these men have been prophesied about, there are men who are DOOMED to this very destiny. God already knows who they are, because they have been prophesied about. Basic Logic.
>>The main problem I have with your argument is that you are saying that God chooses some to believe and others not.<<
I most certainly am and so is Romans 9. Thanks for paying so much attention. That is the WHOLE DEAL. For Jesus to make a statment as condemning as "broad and spacious is the road leading off to destruction" how can he say that unless he knew that to be true? In order for him to know that to be true, he has to know who they are already. Faith is through Christ. Deny it all you like. Denial does not change the truth. Denial makes it known who you are.
>>That is not Biblical.<<
Sure the heck is. You have defended yourself with nothing. Claiming you understand the grammar with no explaination of it. Faith is a gift from God. He has assumed control. You have NO CONTROL over your own destiny. God controls ALL THINGS unto Himself. If you do not like it, you do not like God.
>>Do you not think that Satan believes in God? Of course he does. He has just rejected him. If Satan turned himself around and subjected himself to God's will he could be saved, but we know he would never do that and I am not saying he ever would. He is all evil.<<
Doomed to die just like those like him. And God already knows who they are. All men are doomed to die. Unless God salvaged some men FOR HIMSELF...BY HIMSELF, all men would be condemned to death. ALL MEN are condemned to death and it is God who chooses who He wants out of all the condemned. You are powerless over your destiny. If you had power over your destiny, that would make you God. You are not God. You are a crappy man like me. So much poo poo on the front yard of life.
>>I do agree that people who sin against the Holy Spirit have sins that are unforgivable according to the scriptures.<<
Then you don't agree with the Bible or Christ. You preach your own gospel that Christ never taught. So you are in the lie mode again:
Mark 3:29
29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin.">>But a sin against the Holy Spirit is to deny Christ, the same as not believing in him.<<
See the above. You are incorrect.
>>You are adding text to the Bible when you say that how would Jesus know how much faith Peter had unless he gave it to him.<<
"INCREASE OUR FAITH!!" You are blind to the truth of God. You sure did not address this one sport. The Apostles asked Christ to increase their faith. The Bible says faith is THROUGH Christ. Deny it, and you deny Christ.
>>He knew because he was God and was all knowing.<<
He was NOT God! He was a man who USED to be God when he was in heaven. He had the Father's power on him, and he was the means by which all men receive their faith.
>>The text does not say he knew because he gave Peter his faith in the first place.<<
INCREASE OUR FAITH!!! That was the Apostles request to Jesus. Jesus DID increase their faith, because ithey could not. It is not in man to increase it or even conjure it up as faith comes from God the Father through his Son.
>>Romans 3:11 -18 is Paul's indictment to the Jewish people that the law will not save them. Taken out of context it doesn't say what you are implying.<<
You a liar. It SAYS PLAINLY that Jew and Gentile are alike. It has NOTHING to do with your fabrication to hide the truth of men's utter debased condition and impossilbilty to find the truth of God on their own:
Rom 3:9-18
9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written:"There is no one righteous, not even one;
11 there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12 All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."
13 "Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit."
"The poison of vipers is on their lips."
14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 ruin and misery mark their ways,
17 and the way of peace they do not know."
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."That is mankind, Jew and Gentile alike. So your scam "out of context" has been shown to be a lie. One lie generates the next. It is a viscious cycle that God will end.
>>John 1:13 must be put in context. The verses are talking about Jesus and the verses before it say : Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, HE GAVE THE RIGHT to become children of God- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.<<
See the BOLD? It is not man's right to create it. It IS NOT their decsion. It is Jesus right to give it and decide WHO to give it to.
>>John 1 :9 says that this is available to ALL men who believe. It is available to all, not just a chosen few.<<
You preach a lie.
>>My argument is simple: Man has the free will to chose God or not.<<
That is a lie.
>>If Man repents of his sins, choses to open his heart to God and profess his faith in him, the Holy Spirit dwells within him and he is born again.<<
Man cannot choose ANYTHING on his own. God gives the man faith in order to believe. Then the fruitage of a believer follows.
>>Eph 2:4,5 - God made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions it is by grace that we are saved. This passage does not change by argument
GOD MADE US ALIVE. And yet you preach, you make yourself alive. That is a bald faced lie.
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RWC
Pom.,
What you are saying is that if God has chosen you to be the elected that will believe than you have no choice to believe and you will be saved. This is the Calvinistic doctrine of Irresistible Grace. It is not supported by the Bible.
Matt.23:37- "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones thoses who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See Your house is left to you desolate for I say to you you shall see Me no more till you say, Blesses is He who comes in the name of the Lord!"
Acts 7:51 - you stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears!@ You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did so do you.
Man has free will do decide to believe or not:
Deuteronomy 30:16 - In that I command you today to love the Lord your God to walk in his ways and to keep his commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish.... I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendatns may live.
1John 5:1 - Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him.
You say that Man is incapable of having the ability to believe on his own because he is a sinner. That is the doctrine of Total Depravity or Total Inability. This is not Biblical.
Romans 6:17- But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.
Mark 16:16- He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
John 20:31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that believing you may have life in his name.
Acts 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Romans 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
1 John 3:23- And this is his commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another
Believe in God is not thrust upon anyone by God but reguires a conscious decision by each individual.
Acts 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved.
Romans 10:9 quoted above
Ephesians 1:13 In him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in him whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
John 5:40 - But you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life.
You must believe that Jesus dies on the cross not for all mankind, but for only the elected few. This is the doctrine of Limited Atonement. It is not Biblical.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as smoe count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
1 John 2:2 And he Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He by the Grace of God, might taste death for everyone.
Do you believe in the Trinity? When I say Jesus was God, I am referring to his role in the Trinity.
As far as your grammer lesson, what makes you think that English grammer in the twenty first century has any applicability to greek writings two thousans years old? Dis they know of subject and predicate than? How is applicable based upon your understanding of grammer today?