adam & eve

by gotcha 126 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  RWC

  First you call me stupid then you claim that ANYONE doesn't mean ANYONE it means some. That makes no sense.

  Second, my grammer and my understanding of that sentence is accurate. You can either accept that or not. And you cannot take the sentence out of context if you are attempting to give it an accurate meaning. The proper context is as I have described it.

  Third, when you say that faith is planted at the time of the new birth, you are proving my point. If a new birth is when the person accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior and that is when the faith is planted as you say, then that is what I have been saying all along. The person professes his faith, accepts the Lord as his Savior and he is indwelled with the Holy Spirit and born again. If it comes at the same time then we have no real argument.

  Your view is a very extreme Calvinistic view of election and predestination if you believe that man haas no choice in the matter. That view is not Biblical.

  Fourth, I didn't say that destroy and upset were the same thing. I said the meaning of my argument is the same. Whether the faith is destoryed or upset, if it comes from God how can that be.

  Where in Matt. 14:31 does it say that Peter had been given only a little faith at that point so he was given more later? It doesn't. You have added that to the text.

  Where in Matt. 15: 28 does it say that the women was given great faith by God? it doesn't. You are adding this to the text.

  Where does it say in Matt. 13:58 that they had no faith because none was given out. You are adding this to the text.

  If you have to support your argument by adding to the Bible, it is not based on the Bible.
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Pomegranate writes in response to the order of salvation:
  

  More like the same time.

  response: well almost you see If man is born dead in his sins and trespasses then he is dependent on the mercy of God to act first. Remember man cannot chose God his free will is bound to his sinful inclination. Romans 3:11 makes mans ability very clear. Remember man is completely dependant on God.
  

  John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
  And
  Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.

  As you see GOD makes a man alive First Eph 2:4,5 and then afterward he(the sinner) immediately places his trust in Christ. To say it another way, God changes his affections as a result he seeks the things of God. God changes the heart.
  How else can you explain the passage?
  

  Eph 2:4,5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love where with he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, has made us alive together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

  pomegranate writes:
  

  God chooses the man, man CANNOT choose God because man is born in a debased and corrupt vessel.

  You are absolutely correct…….
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  RWC asks a very important question.:
  

  Where does faith come from?

  Response from the scriptures:
  

  EPH 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him. 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us who believe, according to the working of his mighty power
  Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

  RWC, if faith is not a gift from God then salvation is not sola gratia(Grace Alone). You may not be aware but you are promoting a works righteousness salvation.

  Question for RWC: If a man is bound by sins and trespasses and cannot choose God(lets review the passage)

  There is none that understand, there is none that seek(other translations use choose) after God.

  Where does man get his saving faith? From with in? or is it too a gift from God. If man can with his own ability (where does it come from?) muster enough faith from his gut then how can he explain this verse from Phillipians
  

  Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

  RWC, it is plain that the scriptures teach that faith is a gift from God and does not come from with in…

  Where does Lydia get her faith from God or deeeeeeep with in her guts?
  

  Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended(received or gave heed, in other translations) unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

  
  late,
  jr
• 

  pseudoxristos

  pomegranate,
  

  Then I looked at the surrounding context in light of who this word "Para" could be meaning, and the truth was obvious. "His own [people]" meant the JEWISH (Jesus was a Jew member??) scribes who were not even there yet. They were in Jerusalem and left upon hearing of Jesus actions to TAKE CHARGE of him. Then, the following paragraph shows the JEWISH scribes arriving and claiming him to be possesed and of Satan.

  Do you make this up as you go, or do you actually put some thought into it? Look at a map. It is at least 100 miles from Jerusalem to Capernaum or the Sea of Galilee. If the Scribes were still in Jerusalem, how do you account for their quick arrival? Or, do you believe Jesus and the crowd were there for several days, while the Scribes were making the trip from Jerusalem?

  The account actually says that when the group of people in Mark 3:21 heard of this, they left to take custody of him. Mark 3:22, which actually talks about the Scribes, seems to suggest that they were already there, having previously come down from Jerusalem.

  It is obvious to most people from the context and also when observing basic rules of grammar that Mark is referring to two different groups of people in Mark 3:21 and Mark 3:22. Therefore you are wrong in your assumption that “his own (people)” could mean the “JEWISH SCRIBES”.

  “His own (people)” suggests these individuals were closer to him (in a figurative sense) than your suggestion of the Scribes. Your previous argument that this was a statement for protection is closer to the truth than your current fairy tale.

  “His own (people)” went out to take custody of Him, neither because he blasphemed nor because he challenged their authority, but because they thought, "He has lost His senses". Again, this group of people is best explained, by the appearance of Jesus’ family in verse 31. In Mark 3:21, they went out to take custody of Him. In Mark 3:31, they arrive. They were there because they were concerned. They were there to “take custody of him”. They believed “he had lost his senses” because they did not know he was the “Christ”.
• 

  pomegranate

  >>First you call me stupid then you claim that ANYONE doesn't mean ANYONE it means some. That makes no sense.<<

  If YOUR premise is true, then that means Satan the Devil can be saved.

  Is that YOUR position? That the "ANYONE" above is inclusive of Satan the Devil? Because IF you answer NO, then that ANYONE is NOT all encompassing and would also EXCLUDE demons, those that sinned against the Holy Spirit etc. Christ plainly said NO HOPE for those that sin against the Spirit, is your position that these too can be saved as one of the ANYONE's??

  Preposterous!

  >>Second, my grammer and my understanding of that sentence is accurate.<<

  It is NOT. LIAR. Subject followed by predicate. Go back to school.

  >>You can either accept that or not.<<

  I have evidence to justifiably say you are lying. That is not an insult, that is a FACT by the evidence OF SIMPLE GRAMMAR.

  >>And you cannot take the sentence out of context if you are attempting to give it an accurate meaning. The proper context is as I have described it.<<

  LIAR.

  >>Third, when you say that faith is planted at the time of the new birth, you are proving my point.<<

  No, you just agreed with mine, Man does NOT plant faith in himself, it is PLANTED by the possessor of the seed, and that is God. Man seed is only evil. Out of evil only come evil. Faith is good. Man is bad. Good cannot come out of bad unless something Good puts it within something bad. That is God.

  >>If a new birth is when the person accepts Jesus as their Lord and Savior and that is when the faith is planted as you say, then that is what I have been saying all along.<<

  It is not. You have been denying faith is from God. Yet, you are now saying "when the faith is planted"...that takes it out of man's hands. Man plants NOTHING in himself. He is born crap. He can't change that. If the change is to come, it comes from God and God alone by the giving of a corrupt man the good faith to believe in Him.

  >>The person professes his faith, accepts the Lord as his Savior and he is indwelled with the Holy Spirit and born again. If it comes at the same time then we have no real argument.<<

  A man cannot profess faith until he has received faith. He does not receive faith UNTIL God decides to give it to him.

  >>Your view is a very extreme Calvinistic view of election and predestination if you believe that man haas no choice in the matter. That view is not Biblical.<<

  You wait and see. God's view is extreme. In a nutshell? God says love me or die.

  >>Fourth, I didn't say that destroy and upset were the same thing.<<

  But even if the word is upset the meaning is the same.

  (Emphasis added)

  >>I said the meaning of my argument is the same.<<

  You said WORD not argument. Do you really know what you are saying?

  >>Whether the faith is destoryed or upset, if it comes from God how can that be.<<

  Because the faith is dwelling within an imperfect vessel. Simple.

  >>Where in Matt. 14:31 does it say that Peter had been given only a little faith at that point so he was given more later? It doesn't. You have added that to the text.<<

  Well if Jesus said Peter had a little faith, I won't argue with him.

  >>Where in Matt. 15: 28 does it say that the women was given great faith by God? it doesn't. You are adding this to the text.<<

  Jesus said the faith was great I won't argue with him. How would HE know who had none, little or great if he didn't know? How else could he know? Unless the source was from HIM as PAUL many time says PLAINLY.

  >>Where does it say in Matt. 13:58 that they had no faith because none was given out. You are adding this to the text.<<

  Christ is the SOURCE of faith. You are denying Christ and his role as Savior and source of all that is good in a bad man. May God correct you, is that be His will. If not, so be it.

  >>If you have to support your argument by adding to the Bible, it is not based on the Bible.<<

  Go away Liar.
• 

  pomegranate

  >>well almost you see If man is born dead in his sins and trespasses then he is dependent on the mercy of God to act first.<<

  Agreed.

  >>Remember man cannot chose God his free will is bound to his sinful inclination.<<

  Agreed.

  >>Romans 3:11 makes mans ability very clear. Remember man is completely dependant on God.<<

  Rom 3:11
  11 there is no one who understands,
  no one who seeks God.

  Agreed. As I have said, the shephed gathers the sheep, the sheep DO NOT seek the shepherd.

  >>John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
  And
  Romans 9:16 So then it is not of him that wills, nor of him that runs, but of God that shows mercy.<<

  Bingo. You seem to have much in discermant in this regard.

  Oh mankind, where is your will in relation to God? Dead.

  >>As you see GOD makes a man alive First Eph 2:4,5 and then afterward he(the sinner) immediately places his trust in Christ. To say it another way, God changes his affections as a result he seeks the things of God. God changes the heart.
  How else can you explain the passage?<<

  I cannot disagree with you.

  >>Eph 2:4,5 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love where with he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, has made us alive together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)<<

  How can this be denied? How? It is like the writing on the wall is it not? Well, in fact I know why:

  Rom 11:7-9
  The others were hardened, 8 as it is written:

  "God gave them a spirit of stupor,
  eyes so that they could not see
  and ears so that they could not hear,
  to this very day."

  >>You are absolutely correct…….<<

  May it be by God's will alone.
• 

  pomegranate

  >>Do you make this up as you go, or do you actually put some thought into it? Look at a map. It is at least 100 miles from Jerusalem to Capernaum or the Sea of Galilee. If the Scribes were still in Jerusalem, how do you account for their quick arrival? Or, do you believe Jesus and the crowd were there for several days, while the Scribes were making the trip from Jerusalem?<<

  Jesus often stayed for days at one place. You have a problem with that? Also, explain the "family" arriving in the same place twice.

  >>The account actually says that when the group of people in Mark 3:21 heard of this, they left to take custody of him. Mark 3:22, which actually talks about the Scribes, seems to suggest that they were already there, having previously come down from Jerusalem.<<

  I disagree. The context is rather plain.

  >>It is obvious to most people from the context and also when observing basic rules of grammar that Mark is referring to two different groups of people in Mark 3:21 and Mark 3:22. Therefore you are wrong in your assumption that “his own (people)” could mean the “JEWISH SCRIBES”.<<

  Do pull the grammar card on me. You have no idea who you are dealing with.

  >>“His own (people)” suggests these individuals were closer to him (in a figurative sense) than your suggestion of the Scribes.<<

  His own people were the JEWS. Since he was the Christ, and they were the "chosen people" by him when in heaven, it doesn't get any closer than that.

  >>Your previous argument that this was a statement for protection is loser to the truth than your current fairy tale.<<

  Nice intellectual analysis.

  >>“His own (people)” went out to take custody of Him, neither because he blasphemed nor because he challenged their authority, but because they thought, "He has lost His senses". Again, this group of people is best explained, by the appearance of Jesus’ family in verse 31.<<

  I'd like to know how they arrive twice at the same place.

  >>In Mark 3:21, they went out to take custody of Him. In Mark 3:31, they arrive. They were there because they were concerned. They were there to “take custody of him”. They believed “he had lost his senses” because they did not know he was the “Christ”.<<

  They most certainly did. Good bye.
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  Pom,

  check these out and give me your take on the Canons of Dort, Westminster Confession of Faith and Shorter Catchism.

  http://www.reformed.org/documents/canons_of_dordt.html

  http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

  http://www.reformed.org/documents/WSC_frames.html

  Faith Alone, Grace Alone, Scriptures Alone to the Glory to God Alone,
  jr
• 

  gotcha

  hello pom, pseudo, rwc and others...may i just ask u sumthin? what religion are u guys in or are u agnostics/atheists or what?
• 

  clash_city_rockers

  I am a christian by God's grace alone
  my theological inclaination is very old school protestant
  I have calvinist convictions look at the post above and read the links