adam & eve

by gotcha 126 Replies latest watchtower bible

pomegranate

>>The Mother of Jesus Thought He Was Deluded
Mark told us in Mark 3:21 that the “family” thought Jesus was nuts, then later identifies the family members in Mark 3:31 as the “mother and brothers.” It doesn’t get much clearer than that. If Mark wanted us to understand that Mary knew Jesus was God, he certainly never would have used words that strongly indicate that Mary thought Jesus was “out of his mind.”<<
No, what Jesus mother and brothers were doing was trying to protect Jesus from the heat he began putting himself under. Bring in the context, it is quite apparent the kind of hole Jesus was putting himself in:
Mark 2:6-7
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 "Why does this fellow talk like that? He's blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?"
He was butting heads with "central hall." Mary and the rest of the family were afraid for Christ, because they obviously were well aware of the reputation and power of the ruling class Jews.
>>Now we can better understand why Mark had Jesus’ mother and brothers reject Jesus' divinity earlier in Mark 3:21:<<
There is not ONE insinuation of Jesus mother or family members "rejecting" Christ as the Messiah. While Christ was a man he was NOT divine (God) so divinity has nothing to do with anything. REJECTION, being OFFENDED, LACK OF FAITH is not the words or phrases that are used anywhere in the context, nor is it communicated in any way (like the towns people passgaes). Mary and the family were trying to protect Jesus from the oncoming jewish heirarchy inslaught, by making an excuse for his BOLD behavior that was being exhibited right up in the face of the big bad Jews. Jesus was PURPOSELY churning up the garbage. So your premise has fallen apart in pieces.
>>Rejection of Jesus by those who knew him best is another important theme in Mark’s gospel. It occurs first with his mother and brothers, who declared him “out of his mind,”<<
Declaring Christ "out of his mind" is certainly NOT a statement of rejection, disbelief or anything of the sort. And anyone that reads that understanding into the context is really lost in the dark of his own self suppositions. It was not a statement of rejection but rather a statement for protection.
The towns people, that WAS rejection of which the context is plain.
Mark 6:3And they took offense at him.
Mark6:6 And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
Your claims of Mary and the family rejecting him, are incorrect and are NOWHERE in the English context or the Greek wording.
Your hot air ballon's leaking gas again Joe.
pseudoxristos

pomegranate
The towns people, that WAS rejection of which the context is plain.
The towns people are clearly not the ones rejecting Jesus. The towns people are the ones crowding Jesus to be cured by him. The context is plain that it is Jesus' family that made the statement that he was out of his mind.
The following background on the gospel of Mark should make this clear.
Mark does not start his Gospel with an infancy narrative, therefore Mark does not have a problem with the family of Jesus showing disrespect toward him. If the family of Jesus had no idea that Jesus was the Son of God, they obviously would have thought he was out of his mind.
Mark 3:7-19a, clearly shows that the crowd of people were coming to him on hearing of the many cures he was performing
Mark 3:22-30, clearly interrupts the natural flow of the family incident. Read vss 19b-21 with vss 31-35, and then read vss 22-30 separately.
Mark 3:31-35, clearly shows Jesus' response to his family.
Mark 6:1-4, clearly shows that Jesus was rejected in his hometown and even his own house.
The context of Mark clearly shows that his family had rejected him, and his response to their rejection. This may conflict with the other gospels, but Mark did not write the other the other gospels.
Therefore as Joe stated:
Thus, one or the other of the two gospel writers--or both--are wrong.
pomegranate

>>The towns people are clearly not the ones rejecting Jesus. The towns people are the ones crowding Jesus to be cured by him. The context is plain that it is Jesus' family that made the statement that he was out of his mind.<<<
I believe you're reading the WRONG passage friend in relation to town rejection. When Joe is mentioning hometown rejection, he is talking about when Jesus went back to his home town in chapter 6.
Mark 6:1-6
6:1 Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples...

"Where did this man get these things?" they asked. "What's this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! 3 Isn't this the carpenter? Isn't this Mary's son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren't his sisters here with us?" And they took offense at him.
4 Jesus said to them, "Only in his hometown, among his relatives and in his own house is a prophet without honor." 5 He could not do any miracles there, except lay his hands on a few sick people and heal them. 6 And he was amazed at their lack of faith.
That's called being BELITTLED, TAKING OFFENSE and REJECTING.
>>Mark 3:7-19a, clearly shows that the crowd of people were coming to him on hearing of the many cures he was performing<<
We are NOT talking about that passage when we are discussing hometown rejection. It is Mark 6
>>Mark 3:22-30, clearly interrupts the natural flow of the family incident. Read vss 19b-21 with vss 31-35, and then read vss 22-30 separately.<<
You are in the wrong chapter regarding hometown rejection.
Chapter three is Mary/Family trying to get Jesus out of the BIG JEW STORM Jesus is purposely planting himself in the middle of, by trying to make Jesus DEFIANT and BOLD behavior look like he isn't responsible for his actions.
Of course, Jesus is INTENTIONALLY going against the Jewish grain with FULL VIGOR. It's not that his family do not believe who he is as Joe wrongly insinuates, rather, it is the family trying to get Jesus off the Jewish hot plate.
pseudoxristos

pomegranate
I believe you're reading the WRONG passage friend in relation to town rejection. When Joe is mentioning hometown rejection, he is talking about when Jesus went back to his home town in chapter 6.
Yes, after reading the post again, I did use the wrong passage in debating this point; the townspeople in Jesus' hometown did reject him.
We are in agreement on the point that his family declared that he was "out of his mind". We are not in agreement as to the reason why they declared him out of his mind. Nowhere in the text of Mark does he ever suggest that they did this to protect him. If so, please show me a reference that clearly states this.
I certainly agree with your comments on Mark 6:1-6.
That's called being BELITTLED, TAKING OFFENSE and REJECTING.
Are we to understand in Mark 6:4 that Jesus was only referring to the "townspeople" when he uses terms such as "relatives" and "in his own house"? It appears that not only did the townspeople "BELITTLE, TAKE OFFENSE and REJECT" Jesus, but also his "relatives" and "his own house", "BELITTLED, TOOK OFFENSE and REJECTED" Jesus.
In Summary, Mark 3 clearly shows the relatives including Mary declaring Jesus out of his mind, followed by his reaction to his mother and family. Mark 6 reinforces this, by showing the townspeople and relatives rejection of Jesus. Nowhere in Mark does it state that the relatives already knew that Jesus was the Messiah (no infancy narrative), therefore their thinking him "out of his mind" and rejection, are not to be unexpected. The idea of the family knowing he was the Messiah, along with the assertion that they declared him out of his mind for his protection, is in error. I consider this to be bringing ideas (probably from the other gospels) to the text of Mark, which just aren't there.
pomegranate

>>We are in agreement on the point that his family declared that he was "out of his mind". We are not in agreement as to the reason why they declared him out of his mind. Nowhere in the text of Mark does he ever suggest that they did this to protect him. If so, please show me a reference that clearly states this.<<
No where in the context does it say they rejected him. Let's look at what Jesus mother would have known about her son prior to the words of "out of his mind" shall we?:
Mark 1:10-11
the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Mark 1:13
13 and he was in the desert forty days, [WITHOUT food or drink]
Mark 1:25-26
25 "Be quiet!" said Jesus sternly. "Come out of him!" 26 The evil spirit shook the man violently and came out of him with a shriek.
Mark 1:30-31
30 Simon's mother-in-law was in bed with a fever, and they told Jesus about her. 31 So he went to her, took her hand and helped her up. The fever left her
Mark 1:34
Jesus healed many who had various diseases. He also drove out many demons, but he would not let the demons speak because they knew who he was.
So, your trying to tell me the demons knew who Jesus was but his own mother didn't?
Mark 1:39
39 So he traveled throughout Galilee, preaching in their synagogues and driving out demons.
Mark 1:41-42
41 Filled with compassion, Jesus reached out his hand and touched the man. "I am willing," he said. "Be clean!" 42 Immediately the leprosy left him and he was cured.
Mark 2:4-5
lowered the mat the paralyzed man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Son, your sins are forgiven."
Mark 3:1-3
3:1 Another time he went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2 Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3 Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Stand up in front of everyone."
Jesus mother believed in her son and who he was. What she also would have known was the Jews HATING what her son was doing. The big Jewish EXPOSE'...They were planning to KILL him. Like this:
Mark 3:6
6 Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.
She knew the deal 100%. Mommy was trying to get her son out of the heat. There is NOTHING else in the context that can be understood from what is written as to WHY she would have said that.
Also:
Gal 1:19
19 I saw none of the other apostles-only JAMES, the Lord's brother.
James was Jesus brother, which means Mary was James' mother
Mark 15:40
40 Some women were watching from a distance. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James the younger
Mary the mother of James above is the same Mary, mother of Jesus. If she rejected her son, why was she there watching her son be put to death?
Also this:
Mark 15:40
Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome.
Jesus had half siblings James, Joses and Salome...this is the mother of Jesus, and again:
Mark 15:46-47
Then he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb. 47 Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid
Why is she so concerned over a son whom she supposedly rejected as less than zero?
Mark 16:1-8
16:1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3 and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?"
4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. 5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
6 "Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.'"
8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
Here is Jesus mother being one of the first to know of his resurrection. Why would one who rejected the Messiah be so concerned over the life of this same one. Why would God show one who rejected the Messiah be given the first evidence of his being resurrected?
Mary knew EXACTLY who her son was. Even when she was trying to get him OUT of the situation he was in in chapter 3. After all, all the proof I need for that is that she WENT TO HIM. When you reject someone, yoou don't go and follow that one, you go the OTHER WAY.
pseudoxristos

Mark 1:11 (NRSV)
11 And a voice came from heaven, "You are my Son, the Beloved; with you I am well pleased."
Compare Mark's version of Jesus' baptism with the other gospels. Mark clearly has God address Jesus directly, using the pronoun "YOU" as if he is speaking to Jesus alone. Mark does not portray this as a public announcement. The other gospels have God speaking to a crowd.
Matt 17:5 (NRSV)
5 While he was still speaking, suddenly a bright cloud overshadowed them, and from the cloud a voice said, "This is my Son, the Beloved; with him I am well pleased; listen to him!"
Therefore according to Mark no announcement was made that he was the Messiah.
Also notice in Mark that Jesus himself encouraged people not to go spreading the word that he was the Messiah.
Mark 1:41-45 (NRSV)
41 Moved with pity, Jesus stretched out his hand and touched him, and said to him, "I do choose. Be made clean!" 42 Immediately the leprosy left him, and he was made clean. 43 After sternly warning him he sent him away at once, 44 saying to him, "See that you say nothing to anyone; but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer for your cleansing what Moses commanded, as a testimony to them." 45 But he went out and began to proclaim it freely, and to spread the word, so that Jesus could no longer go into a town openly, but stayed out in the country; and people came to him from every quarter.

Mark constantly uses the word "immediately" or "at once" (depending on the translation) to make transitions from event to event, this gives the impression of a rapid sequence of events. So according to Mark not much time has passed from baptism to his return to home in Mark 2:1.
Mark 2:1 (NRSV)
1 When he returned to Capernaum after some days, it was reported that he was at home.
Notice from this point on Jesus starts having problems with the Jewish Leaders. This is probably when his family first heard what he was proclaiming.
He latter departed.
Mark 3:7 (NRSV)
7 Jesus departed with his disciples to the sea, and a great multitude from Galilee followed him;
Now notice that he came back, his family heard of it and went out. Therefore they had not been with him and they did not know that he was the Messiah. They thought he was "out of his mind". Why? Because they did not believe he was the Messiah. Yes, I'm sure they were concerned, he was Mary's son, and any mother would be. But, they did not believe he was the Messiah. In this manner they rejected him as the Messiah not as their son, or relative.
Mark 3:20-21 (NRSV)
Then he went home; 20 and the crowd came together again, so that they could not even eat. 21 When his family heard it, they went out to restrain him, for people were saying, "He has gone out of his mind."
***
Summary:
Jesus was baptized. He was probably old enough to not have his mother hanging around all the time. Mark does not mention that Mary was there when he was baptized. If she was, the address from God was to Jesus personally. She still doesn't know he is the Messiah. Then he was immediately taken to the wilderness. She wasn't there with him either. He started his ministry. He came home. He then started having problems with the Jewish Leaders. He left. He came back. His family heard, and were concerned, because they did not think he was the Messiah, They believed he was out of his mind. They were still concerned for him as a relative, they would still mourn his death as any mother or relative would. The debate is "Jesus was rejected as the Messiah", not as a son or relative.
Actually the thread is about Adam & eve.
pseudoxristos
***note: The NRSV translates the greek word "elegon" in Mark 3:21 as "people were saying", this is normally translated "they were saying" in other translations. This seems to change the meaning of the original text when reading the NRSV. I didn't realize this until after the post. Sorry for any confusion.
c5

Dave (006),
Just wanted to say that I enjoyed your earlier responses...haven't had such a good belly laugh in a while! I do basically agree with your comments as well, no matter how sarcastic you meant them to be.
Cari
pomegranate

>>Compare Mark's version of Jesus' baptism with the other gospels. Mark clearly has God address Jesus directly, using the pronoun "YOU" as if he is speaking to Jesus alone. Mark does not portray this as a public announcement. The other gospels have God speaking to a crowd.<<
You're joking right? That is incorrect. First, John the baptizer was certainly there. Then there is this:
Mark 1:5-11
5 The whole Judean countryside and all the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River. 6 John wore clothing made of camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist, and he ate locusts and wild honey. 7 And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
9 AT THAT TIME Jesus came from Nazareth in Galilee and was baptized by John in the Jordan. 10 As Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Verse nine says "at that time" which is refering to the time that all in Judea and Jerusalem were coming to John the baptizer at the Jordan to be baptized. Jesus came PUBLICALLY at the same time all the other people were coming to John to be baptized as other gospel accounts clearly show. At the time John was PUBLICALLY baptizing all of Judea, Jesus came AT THAT TIME. It was PUBLIC as plainly read in the context.
>>Therefore according to Mark no announcement was made that he was the Messiah.<<
Therefore you are wrong according to the context.
>>Also notice in Mark that Jesus himself encouraged people not to go spreading the word that he was the Messiah.<<
People? Plural? You are inaccurately portraying what the Bible says. You are wrong. He told ONE leper not to spread the news of what happened to him. Jesus never said anything to this man regarding being the Messiah. How's it feel to mess up the Bible?
>>Mark constantly uses the word "immediately" or "at once" (depending on the translation) to make transitions from event to event, this gives the impression of a rapid sequence of events. So according to Mark not much time has passed from baptism to his return to home in Mark 2:1.<<
You have to be kidding me? This is a proof of Jesus being out of his mind? You are in the dark buddy. Whatever you are trying to prove by the above, it happens to be the way the dude writes his words. So according to Mark, he wrote it the way he writes.
>>Now notice that he came back, his family heard of it and went out. Therefore they had not been with him and they did not know that he was the Messiah.<<
Where dos it say in the Bibe that his family did not know he was the Messiah? It does not, so you are fabricating a lying concoction.
>>They thought he was "out of his mind". Why? Because they did not believe he was the Messiah.<<
Where does it say they did not believe on him like it does in the hometown verses? It doesn't. You are fabricating.

>>Yes, I'm sure they were concerned, he was Mary's son, and any mother would be. But, they did not believe he was the Messiah.<<
Where does it say that they did not believe? It doesn't.
>> In this manner they rejected him as the Messiah not as their son, or relative.<<
There is not one bit of the term rejection anywhere in the context. What is in the context is Jesus stirring up BIG trouble. What is in the context is Jesus doing miracle after miracle, expelling demon after demon, and you'll have me believe that Mary wasn't privy to the power of God that was on her son? Yeah right.
Also (and here is where you sink like a rock), the MAJORITY of other Bibles render it out that the ones that were saying he was out of his mind were NOT family AT ALL, but people who knew him:
Mark 3:21
21 And when his friends heard of it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
KJV
The above is NOT Mary or family.
Mark 3:21
21 When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His senses."
NASU
The above is NOT Mary or family again.
Mark 3:21
21 And when his friends heard it, they went out to lay hold on him: for they said, He is beside himself.
ASV
Again, another translation that is NOT Mary or family.
Mark 3:20-22
21 And when His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, "He has lost His senses."
NAS
Again, another one that is NOT Mary or family.
Mark 3:21
21 When his friends heard what was happening they came to try to take him home with them.
"He's out of his mind," they said.
TLB
Another that does not have Mary or family.
As a matter of fact, now that I have even reviewed the Greek, the word FAMILY as normally used in Greek, is not even in the original Greek writings AT ALL. So now I have come to the realization because of all the other Bibles renderings, and examining the Greek, that the Bibles that have FAMILY rendered here in this verse are incorrect.
Those ones that were probably calling Jesus "out of his mind" were probably the ones from his HOMETOWN. Assuredly so.
You need to re-adjust friend. You are wrong.
RWC

Joe, here you are again. You throw out what you state to be a contradiction and after you are refuted you stay away. We have done this before and I thank ACHRISTIAN's and POM's input.
I think that it is unbelievable that Mary knowing that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit while she was a virgin, seeing wise men come and worship him, having him leave her for a couple of days to teach among the elders and say he is in his father's house, see him turn water into wine at her request and then heal other people, to all of a sudden then believe that he is out of his mind. It makes no sense and is not an accurate reading of the passages.
Try again. God Bless
clash_city_rockers

aChristian wrote:
I believe the story of Adam and Eve happened quite literally, exactly as Genesis tells us that it did. I believe that "the first Adam" was a real historical person.

Question: How can you believe in the historical accounts of Genesis if in erlyer posts you denied the doctine of the fall? Please explane.

adam & eve

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