Ok Hearing Voices..... Terry I might need your help LOL

by Darth plaugeis 64 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  undercover

  Even Eve, with her eyes 'opened', knew that she had been deceived and said so in the account.

  She was deceived in that she was talked into disobeying God. The serpent got her to disobey...but he did not lie. It was a form of deception, yes, but everything the serpent said came true. They did not die. They came to be like God, knowing good and bad.

  Being away from God's presence is death. Spiritual death. And don't forget that they hid from God because they were afraid and ashamed. Again, spiritual death.

  That's an interpretation, an opinion. The account clearly says that they would die. If it was meant metaphorically, God did a poor job of explaining that. Remember we're dealing with two ignorant souls who don't even know good from bad. How would they understand symbolic death versus real death?

  When you read the account...as it's written...and leave all beliefs, faith, preconceived notions aside, the story clearly has plot holes. But in the end that's all it is...a story. A myth. It didn't really happen. So it's kinda like arguing about the plot holes in Harry Potter books.
• 

  Terry

  What we need in Genesis is SPACKLE!
• 

  tec

  So it was a metaphorical death?

  and

  If it was meant metaphorically, God did a poor job of explaining that. Remember we're dealing with two ignorant souls who don't even know good from bad. How would they understand symbolic death versus real death?

  Spiritual and metaphorical are not the same things. Spiritual death is real - but that means nothing to someone who does not believe in the spirit. I had a taste of what spiritual death might feel like, once. It was awful. It was darkness - darkness and emptiness. I would say filled with regret and sorrow and fear - but that wouldn't be entirely accurate. The regret and sorrow and fear came from the thought that I could NOT live in this darkness - not for long. I would rather have been dead (physically) and simply blink out of existence.

  Spiritual death. Spiritual life. That was what Christ spoke of - and I gain my understanding through Him, as I should, if I claim to be a follower of Christ.

  Note also that neither of them (Adam and Eve) seemed to be confused that they were still alive (physically - in the flesh), or say that God had lied to them.

  Tammy
• 

  Darth plaugeis

  All excellent points... thanks everyone

  Ok .... 1 point I think I heard was A&E didn't understand Death....

  Eve told the Serpent If I eat I DIE. The Serpent said No you will not Die....

  Sounds like Eve understood Death.

  Do I believe In Eden and the Creation account..... not at all. I do respect those(my wife) who take it as fact. It's the one story in the Bible that STANDS OUT from the rest and Does sound like Mythology.... even as a JW it seemed like it didn't belong in the same Book.

  I know Satan was the one who Deceived Eve. But God DID curse the Serpent. Satan didn't crawl on his belly showing Jesus the Kingdoms of the World he could have if he Worshiped him.

  When they listened to the Snake and Ate they noticed they were Naked and felt ashamed and covered their flesh......

  So was this a Tell Tale Heart God created so ....(even thou he is all powerfully) there would be a warning to show God the Tree had been touched??? And they hid from God ......you can do that. as a teenager I was embarrassed when I ...(was alone) thinking God was so disappointed in me for doing that....... but apparently you GO AGAINST GOD'S WILL and Hide and he will walk around asking ....Hey Where are you guys????

  Again I go back and think this story shows.... the Early God was an..... Asshole.

  He created a creature and Cursed it because another of his Creation used a Creature he Created to deceive some others that AGAIN he Created.

  So .........who's the one with the Problem???
• 

  Witness My Fury

  Having given this a fresh read thru and looking at it in the simplistic language that the account is written in it does seem to fit nicely into a story told to answer a child who has asked "Daddy, why dont snakes have legs?" i.e not the other way around of, why do we die.

  Like you say DP... why did God curse the snake for something over which it had no control and no responsibility and all snakes thereafter cursed to the same punishment? We have no way of knowing WHAT went on there as it would have been passed down orally thru many centuries and embellished no end anyhow so that the account as written may well be mostly myth by the time it gets carved into stone.

  Cheers
• 

  Darth plaugeis

  I remember in the JW years..... I was discussing (I can't remember which Bible it was help please) that included books such as Maccabees. And this Brother told me the story of Lilith. Adam's first wife... What? I said....

  At the time it sounded like total Sci Fi.

  Years later... History Channel shows Books excluded from the Bible and what comes up....

  Lilith...

  Now if the story was included in the Original Version........ I might of thought different...Bloody Not!!!!

  It would just prove to me God can't Create anything that will listen or Obey him... and Adam must of been a Tool!!!!

  A little tatse of Lilith...... and the reading will begin...

  In Jewish folklore, Lilith is the name of Adam's first wife, who was created at the same time and from the same earth as Adam. She left Adam after she refused to become subservient to Adam and then would not return to the Garden of Eden after she mated with archangelSamael.
• 

  AGuest

  Greetings and may you all have peace. I would like to respond, if I may – thank you!

  So your a Christian.... you love the Bible.. Damn You live your Life by this book Right?

  Yes… no… and no.

  Let's start off at the beginning shall we???

  Let’s…

  Adam and Eve (yes again) who deceived Eve???? Serpent or Satan????

  Satan is the Serpent…

  Now Eve... a Woman... was not stupid right?? Not Blonde Right?(no offense to blondes)

  Stupid, no. Inexperienced, yes. Very.

  So she knew a Snake...Serpent... doesn't speak right????

  It wasn’t a snake. It was a serpent (which is NOT a snake)… and yes, serpents speak…

  It was Satan right???

  It was. It was Beli-Jah-El… the Slanderer and Deceiver.

  So she eats... Adam Eats.... God's pissed....

  Pissed, no. Disappointed, yes. Very.

  Satan runs and Hides.......

  No, he did not…

  Mankind is doomed........

  No he is not. He will be redeemed. There is no redemption for one who is doomed…

  Eden is Forbodden....

  Temporarily, yes…

  Death is also to include Mankind now.........

  Don’t understand that statement.

  What the Fuck did the Snake do wrong?????

  Nothing. No snake. He did not curse a snake. He cursed a serpent. A spirit being. A flying, fiery serpent… which is what all seraphs… or spirit beings… are.

  Why did God Curse it???

  Because it deceived the woman… and misled the man.

  It was used by Satan right???

  No, it was Satan. He was the cherub that was covering… who was assigned to the garden that was IN Eden. Not Eden itself.

  Don't say the Snake wasn't Cursed......... it was figurative

  Snakes AREN’T cursed… any more than any other animal…

  The Serpent was CURSED

  Yes, the SERPENT was…

  and many believe the Snake had legs at the Garden of Eden....

  And that’s how the story became inaccurate. The being had legs, yes, and wings. Still does. However, the subsequent copyists didn’t understand what occurred and with whom. They see an animal with no legs that goes upon its belly and ASSUMED that it was that animal… a snake… who was in the garden and who deceived Eve and misled Adam. Not true. It was a seraph, of the “cherub” order… which a spirit being with high rank. This particular one was one of the cherubs “of the ark.” He is a spirit being that USED to be able to stand upright like an “able-bodied” man… but must now crouch and crawl along. He STILL has legs… AND wings (which draco… or “dragons” do)… and can fly. He just cannot stand. Because it is a PRIVLEGE to be able to stand before the throne of the Most Holy One of Israel… and the worst dishonor to have to crawl along, like the creeping (disgusting) things.

  and part of the Curse was to crawl on it's belly.

  Yep. It’s crouch is pretty low…

  So Again .....What did the Snake do wrong???

  Nothing. No snake. What did the SERPENT… the “arkaic seraph” do wrong? Two (2) things: first, he lied ON God: he lyingly told A&E that God was lying to THEM… that the only reason He didn’t want them to eat from the tree is because if they DID… they would become like Him (knowing good and bad)… and yet, live. Second, he lied TO them… in that although they DID come to know bad (death)… they did die. Unlike God, however… they didn’t “know” good (life) AND bad (death)… and keep living. Unlike my Lord, the Life… who knows… personally… both good (life) AND bad (death)… and yet LIVES… A&E died. And they are dead, yet.

  What was so wrong about this? Well, the first is blasphemy. The second isn’t SO bad… unless you consider what was “lost” as part of the “deal” the Serpent made WITH Adam… to get HIM to agree to eat: his entire progeny. For the “keys to Hades”… so as to “know” bad… and yet LIVE… Adam exchanged the lives of all mankind.

  I would of picked an Ape.

  Not surprising.

  To Use. Looks human....

  You’re kidding, right? If not, you seriously need to get your eyesight checked…

  Hell I almost would think the thing could talk.

  Uhhhh, yeah… no. While they can communicate with hand signals, they cannot talk. Not even almost. Not without the assistance of holy spirit….

  But Again.... the Snake thing... Why did God Curse an Innocent Creature?????

  The creature was neither a snake… nor innocent…

  A God Of Love, Righteousness, Truth, Understanding.

  Yes

  What the Hell Did the Snake do …..........except sit in a tree waiting for food…..

  The serpent was waiting, yes, but not for food. Not by a long shot.

  (OR FRUIT SINCE ALL ANIMALS WHERE vegetarians)

  So, now, think: since both man AND the animals could eat of EVERY tree in the garden, INCLUDING the Tree of Life… but not the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good… and Bad… why would a snake be waiting for food?

  Any thoughts??????

  Yes. Lots. To start with, stop listening to earthling man and his feeble attempts to explain things which he knows nothing about… because they are of his OWN understanding… rather than given to him by the One who was there, the Tree of LIFE… who was ALSO in the MIDST of the garden… my Lord, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, JAHESUAH MISCHAJAH… the TRUE “Vine”, “ROOT of Jesse,” and “Sprout!”… who is the Son and Christ of the Most Holy One of Israel… JAH of Armies… the “Cultivator” who “planted” the “garden” in the first place.

  And who did not threaten A&E with death for eating from the tree… but warned them, lovingly, of what would happen if they DID. And it occurred just as He said. Unfortunately, not only for A&E… but for all of mankind.

  You need to read the account closer...

  Indeed. Many do.

  The serpant (Satan is never mentioned in the book of Genesis - he was created much later)

  That’s because the “secretaries”, copyists, and scribes… didn’t have a CLUE as to what… or, rather, WHO… they were writing about when the copied the account. They really thought it was a mere snake… a talking snake.

  said that if she ate the fruit that A) she would not die and B) she would be like God, knowing good and bad.

  And while the second part did come true… they both came to know good (life) AND bad (death)… the first part didn’t: they DIDN’T become like God. Because DEATH… does not have a HOLD on God. Death is subject TO God. Death DOES, however, have a hold on THEM… still… so that THEY are subject to DEATH. Still. Adam thought that wouldn’t be the case, however, and sold his progeny to REPURCHASE HIMSELF from death. Or so he thought. Didn’t quite work out that way, did it?

  Compare that to what she said that God had said would happen. Eat and you die.

  She did… and she did. But God didn’t say, “Eat… and I will kill you.” It wasn’t a threat, dear one. It was a WARNING: “Don’t touch THAT tree. It is death-dealing. Eat from EVERY OTHER TREE in the garden, but stay away from that one… because it is poison to you.”

  So A&E ate.

  They did.

  What happened?

  A couple few things.

  Their eyes were opened and they became like God, knowing good and bad.

  Uh, no. They’re eyes were opened, yes, and they “saw”… that they were “naked”… and so hid. Then, to add insult to injury, neither took responsibility for their actions OR asked forgiveness. Had they done so, it would have been granted. IMMEDIATELY.

  But, no, Eve blamed it on the serpent (although she WAS deceived… but she could have ‘fessed up at to HER part – the part where the only reason the Serpent was ABLE to deceive her is because she kept showing him her weak spot: her desire FOR the fruit of the tree. The one saw that desire… and simply capitalized on it, exploited it. Adam went even further. He not only blamed HIS part on Eve… but blamed EVE… on God. It was HER fault… for giving him the fruit and making him eat… and God’s fault… for making her.

  But neither became like God… the One who knows good AND bad… and yet lives.

  What was their punishment? Driven out of the garden to toil the ground and experience birth pains.

  Well, isn’t that where Adam originated? Yet, God took him from that place and put him a place where his every need was cared for. And how did he show his appreciation for THAT? So, yeah, send his butt back to his own home. And Eve COULD have had children with the pain of giving birth… but she was more concerned about what she could eat.

  Death for the act of disobedience was not executed.

  Oh, it was executed, absolutely. Because there was NO death prior to their act. IN the garden… or outside. Because death had not yet ENTERED into the physical realm. [Those
  ”long garments of skin” given them? Those weren’t animal skins. NO animal had died or been put to death. NO animal died INSIDE the garden. Indeed, no ONE died inside the garden… and that is where they WERE… when they received such “garment.”

  It wasn’t until they were cast OUT of the garden that death entered on the scene. Which is WHY they had to be cast out. Because DEATH… ENTERED… THROUGH Adam.

  And life… entered… through my Lord… the Light.

  So, in the end, who lied?

  The Serpent. Just as the account, albeit not accurate as to what… or, rather, who… the “serpent” was/is… states. He is the “father”… or the one who brought forth… gave birth to… THE Lie.

  I bid you all peace… and ears to hear when the Spirit and the Bride say to YOU:

  “Come! Take LIFE’S ‘water’… FREE!”

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  tec

  Thank you for that, Shelby. I would not have considered the difference between serpent and snake, though I understood that the serpent was Satan. I didn't even consider that they would have been forgiven had they simply asked, instead of casting blame on one another. But of course. While death came to them for their sin, they could still have been given life.

  (okay, that's really hitting me now and I'm finding it very profound)

  Tammy
• 

  tec

  So they could still have been given life, through the tree of life - which could have healed them?
• 

  just n from bethel

  I love how somebody can take 1 person's post and break it down almost by each word, and have an absolute definitive answer for every single phrase. This reminds me of something...I'm not sure what though...I can't quite put my finger on it - OH I got it now - the Watchtower and the GB and a lot of elder bodies.

  The sad part is that although the content of the theology has changed a bit, the dogmaticism is still there.The good news, Darth, is that the answers are available to all of us - not from men in Brooklyn but from our inner ear very own Lord Jesus Christ who now prefers to go by the name JeHiccup MiCaca. Sure the theology may sound a bit like somebody got their dogma from a mix of Tom Cruise, Prince, and Napoleon Dynamite- but not to worry, you'll get it sooner or later, how do we know?

  Well because MiCaca is the shit. Literally. Yep He's the bomb. The Grand Finale. He is the Truth. And if your not hearing the voice - don't worry, the preferred method that JeHiccup MiCaca likes to use is internet message boards, preferably ones where there are a lot of people from more Christian oriented lands. He doesn't really like to visit boards based in Jewish/Muslim/Hindu/Buddhist lands. So you're in luck - you are at the right place. Now he won't post himself though (he prefers to use his 'slaves' for those tasks) what he'll do is tell some of his most astute listeners that they are now his slaves and that they need to post here to help you see that he is the shit. Sometimes they might go overboard though and post really long messages (longer than this one even). But the gist of their message is this - 'What?!!! OMG!!! You are not hearing JeHiccup MiCaca?!!! He's Right in front of you!!!! He's not giving you the answers? It's because you're not listening. Try Harder. There. Problem solved. Come back and see me in a few weeks and we'll repeat.'

  So there you have it Darth - your answer to that voice issue you're having. And to anybody else that I obviously helped who are having similar issues: My lord JeHiccup MicCaca has this to say - "you're welcome beeaatches!" [Ok sarcastic rant over].

  As a side note - Is it just me or does this whole "peace" greeting seem kind of redundant by now? What are we on the Starship Enterprise? I mean do some people really think they are on another planet and talking to us earthlings. Last time I heard that I was watching Flash Gordon or something: 'Grettings earthlings - peace be to you'... I don't know, maybe it really is just me. Yeah I know - this is someone being sincere and sweet, so I should just say 'bless her little heart' like everyone else and then I should STFU. Actually that probably is good advice for me at this point.