by slimboyfat 85 Replies latest watchtower bible
BrotherDan I was avoiding other uses of the word Proskuneo when its usage indicates not worship but obesience another context driven meaning.
The scriptures I deliberate chose use proskuneo as worship of God in a clearcut, concise way contextually. You are just introducing the word proskuneo by itself implying it can simply means worship everytime which patently isn't the case. And is circular reasoning.
Yeah, I've used that same JW defense myself. The facts ARE in the context. And the context of the opening of Hebrews is showing how much higher Jesus is than any other being. He is so high that even the angels worship him. To decide that the word here should be obesience and not worship is wrong. It's an interpretive change that the WT does. Virtually no scholar agrees with their rendering of this verse.
But they don't understand hermeneutics (as it appears you don't either) so they will never get it right. The context also shows that Jesus is NOT an angel. Yet they say that he is the ANGEL Michael. You guys just don't understand how to interpret scripture. And it's sad...
Brotherdan
the context is Jesus's own words to satan.
Matthew 4:10
10 Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship Jehovah your God, and serve him only.'"
Jesus says the One true God is his father and here he indicates worship is only given to his God Jehovah.
Revelation has to be obeisance simply because it isn't in reference to God. It becomes circular when you try and prove Jesus is God by this. Once it was established that proskuneo could have multiple meanings and only means worship in reference to God himself you argument loses all steam.
in the end all you are saying is Jesus is lying and you can worship someone other than God his father. Trinity particularily suffers because logically if the one true God whom we worship with spirit and truth is the father, you have to say Jesus is the father not just God.
:-) Wrong again, Debator. But I won't get into the Trinity with you. It's a bit over your head.
Hi Dan
I don't debate the trinity! I only debate things that are in the bible!
You want to debate with me about a pink, red spotted spaniel and how many spots it has I will ablige only if the bible talks about it too.
Right. Like I said...over your head. Lets debate the Governing Body...oh wait...that's not in the bible either. BAH!!!!
debator may wish to give some consideration to the following:
"For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son, in order that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him." (John 5: 22,23)
The Watch Tower Society does not really honor the Son very much at all.
Nice point Benny.
Debator, do you honor Jesus JUST AS MUCH as you honor Jehovah?
I would like an explanation from debator as to how "obeisance" differs from "worship" and what criteria is used when translating Proskuneo one way or the other. As I see it the NWT simply uses "obeisance" in all cases where Jesus is the recipient despite the context.
Bennyk
nice strawman but not relevent to the discussion Honor is not worship.
You and Dan seem to think proskuneo can be pushed upto worship if Jesus earns it somehow. But there is no bible precedent for this.
1 Corinthians 15:27
For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
Like I said Jesus says it is our father who is the one we worship with spirit and truth. I don't see how you can get by that? without saying Jesus is a liar. and he should have tacked on "And myself" at the end of that sentence.
Like I said once it is established that proskuneo can have multiple meanings use of that alone cannot indicate worship.
