May I assume you are addressing me, dear Chalam (and the greatest of love and peace to you... even if you aren't!)? If so:
To tell the truth, I am not sure what you are saying. Maybe some simple questions (and answers) might help.
Okay... assuming you are addressing me. If not, please just disregard; my feelings will not be hurt at all - (smiley)
Are there are mistakes in the bible?
Yes, there are. Intentional and unintentional...
Is Jesus is not "Lord" and/or "God"?
Yes... and no (sorry, but that is the truth).
Does the bible record worship of Jesus?
If, by worship, you mean "obeisance"... (which isn't the same kind of worship as "sacred service")... then, yes. And we, too, are to worship him... do obeisance, bow down before, and even kiss him. As God's Son and our Lord and Savior, absolutely.
Are people/angels wrong to worship Jesus?
The problem is that people confuse the Greek word "proskyneo" which, in English means "worship" in the sense of prostrating oneself before, revereing, bowing before, etc., with the Greek word "latreuo" which ALSO means "worship" in English, but in the sense of serving, rendering sacred service. Like this:
Proskyneo -
1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence 2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence 3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank 1) to the Jewish high priests 2) to God 3) to Christ 4) to heavenly beings 5) to demons
So, in this sense of the word, we can not only worship God and Christ, but also other humans, even demons. The word "latreuo", however, is an entirely DIFFERENT kind of worship, and used only with reference to the Most Holy One of Israel:
Latreuo -
1) to serve for hire 2) to serve, minister to, either to the gods or men and used alike of slaves and freemen a) in the NT, to render religious service or homage, to worship b) to perform sacred services, to offer gifts, to worship God in the observance of the rites instituted for his worship (1) of priests, to officiate, to discharge the sacred office
Are we to get out doctrine from "what we see" or what the bible says?
Doctrine... hmmmmm... I dunno about "doctrine." Based on its dictionary definition, I'd have to ask, what do we need "doctrine" for? If you are asking do we learn how to walk through this like by what we see or by what the Bible says, my answer is by neither. As to the first, we are to walk by faith, NOT by sight. As to the other, I say this: first, going by what the Bible says is just another way of walking by sight... by "what we see"... meaning what we read... with our eyes. And, yes, I know... some listen to books on tape and others read Braille... but such ones are NOW actually relying on another's eyes (whoever did the reading/ translation).
If you truly HAVE received holy spirit, dear Chalam... been ANOINTED with it, the "oil of exultation," that it is by means of that anointing that you learn how to walk. Because it is what Christ, the Holy Spirit, USES. You are in union with him, he grants you holy spirit, and through this HE speaks to you... and HE, the Fine Shepherd... leads you. You get "doctrine," from HIM... directly from HIS voice.
Personally, I have been going through a long period where all He wants to do is call me "friend" and "son". I have prayed more than once for the "fear of the Lord" (to avoid the pitfalls of sin) but all I receive is the arm of friendship and further mountains of grace. Obviously, He has better ideas how to deal with me :)
I see nothing wrong with that... although asking for holy spirit... and the "fruit" produced by that spirit... works just as well, if not better...
Jesus NEVER denies us access to the Father, that is false.
Ummmmm... no, dear one, your statement here is false, on two accounts. First, one can only enter if one is "clean" and one is only cleansed... by his blood. So, all KINDS of folks ask for access, but don't get it. Some of them even call him, "Lord, Lord." If you recall, in the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector, the Pharisee was praying... but not to God. He was praying "to himself." Why did our Lord say this? Because although the man THOUGHT he had entry and so THOUGHT he was before the Most Holy One of Israel and so THOUGHT his prayer was being heard... he was really only praying to himself. Because he was the only one LISTENING. Because he had not gained access.
On the second account, should "we" ever turn our faces away from HIM... such access is lost, as well. Rare, yes. But not impossible. Indeed, we CAN be "vomited out" of our Lord's mouth, in a manner of speaking...
The reason Jesus came was to give us permanent access to the Father! The curtain was torn in two from top to bottom-DO NOT go sewing it back up! We can come "boldly to the throne of grace" at any time.
Those who belong to him, yes. Those who are in union with him, yes. And, yes, THOSE groups are OPEN to anyone. But not everyone takes advantage of that, dear one.
Hebrews 10:19 (New International Version) - 19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus
"Brothers," yes...
Ephesians 3:12 (New International Version) - 12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.
The "holy ones... and faithful ones in union with Christ..." yes...
We have freedom and confidence. Jesus will never knock us back.
Knock us back?? Certainly NOT! But block access... yes, he can. And if we become the sort who are, say, "lukewarm," he very well might do that...
As it is the Spirit of God dwells in us!
Yes. But just as that spirit was removed from King Saul... it can be removed from anyone of us who turn OUR face from gazing upon him...
Jesus came not in glory but as a servant.
Which is what we are to be, in imitation of him, yes...
Philippians 2:5-7 (New International Version)
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
Hmmmmm… okay, now, I understand, but I’m not sure you do. There is a footnote to this verse as taken from the NIV regarding the words, “in very nature God.” It refers you to the original Greek, and that refers you to the original GREEK word, “morphe”, which is loosely translated as “in the form of. When you look up that Greek word, “morphe,” however, it does NOT say “in very nature God.” No, that was some “scribes” doing. It says:
1) the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision 2) external appearance
Now, hold on, before you go getting yourself all twitterpated that this “proves” he was in God’s form, the lexicology (Thayer’s) from which those two definitions were taken states:
“the form by which a person or thing strikes the vision; the external appearance: children are said to reflect… (of their parents)…”
Children are NOT their parents, however...
When He returns, He will return in glory!
Absolutely!!
So, finally, how to you read these verses?
Isaiah 45:22-23 (New International Version)
22 "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.
23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.
You should know by now, dear Stephen, that I will tell you that how I read the verses doesn't matter. How our Lord reads... and explains... them TO me is what's important. And he has said:
(1) It is the Father who is speaking here, THROUGH our Lord, His Word...
(2) If we turn to the Father, we WILL be saved...
(3) We turn to the Father by turning to the Christ, the same as with Israel when gazing at the copper serpent lifted up by Moses...
(4) There is no other God... besides the Most Holy One of Israel... the One to whom we must render sacred service, which service is rendered THROUGH our Lord, to whom we must do obeisance...
(5) And every knee WILL bow before the Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, the Great King... "Pharaoh"... which is done first by bowing before His Son, "Joseph", the Holy One of Israel, His Heir and Christ, and the only one worthy to sit on HIS throne
Philippians 2:8-11 (New International Version)
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death-
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of [Jesus] every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that [Jesus] Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Surely, you can see here that God exalted Christ... and not Himself... and that He GAVE our Lord the name above every name? Dear one, let me ask you: which of these verses state that every knee with bend/bow to either God OR Christ… exclusively? Cannot those who bow to God ALSO bow to Christ? And cannot those who bow to Christ ALSO bow to God? And can it not be EVERY knee… in each case? That EVERY knee bows to God does NOT mean every knee WON’T bow to Christ, as well! And that every knee will bow to Christ does NOT mean every knee WON’T bow to God… as well!
Indeed, in my vision where I saw that debased creature, Belial, crawling in, there were TWO thrones to my left. And while I only saw those “standing” in my vision (except Belial, who MUST crawl; he CANNOT stand)… they were standing before BOTH thrones. So that, if everyone one of them bended their knee and bowed… it would certainly have been before BOTH the Father AND the Son. God… AND Christ. Why, then, do you want to make the verses appear to exclude one for the other? They do not.
Or these?
Because, dear one, the "water" of life (life's water)... holy spirit... flows... out from the Father... THROUGH the Son... and down through the MIDST... of New Jerusalem... the PEOPLE... who make up the "temple" of God. The Tree of Life IS Christ... the "fruit" is the fruitage of our heavenly Father's spirit... by means of which those IN the City... bear MORE "fruit." Love, joy, peace, faith, kindness, mildness, goodness, long-suffering, and self-control. And the "leaves" of the Tree [of Life]... heal the nations because it is the LIFE-GIVING FLESH... of the Tree... Christ. By "eating" from that Tree... the nations are HEALED... and so live forever! No more CURSE... because they are INSIDE the City. As are the throne of God AND of the Lamb. And such ones... His servants... will render Him SACRED SERVICE... WORSHIP... in HIS "temple"... the City... day and night.
Perhaps this will help you “see”:
Revelation 22:1-3 (New International Version)-
The River of Life
“Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb down the middleof the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.”
“Because you listened toyour wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’cursed is the ground on your account.
“Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite .”
“This isthe bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven;if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh….”
“… And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of E´den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continuallyto guard the way to the tree of life. ”
“I am the true vineand my Father is the cultivator. Every branch in me not bearing fruit he takes away, and every one bearing fruit he cleans, that it may bear more fruit.”
“God planted a garden in E´den, toward the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. Thus God made to grow out of the ground every treedesirable to one’s sight and good for food and also the tree of lifein the middle of the garden and the tree of the knowledge of good and bad.”
“For look! The kingdom of God… is INSIDE/WITHIN… YOU.”
“ If anyoneloves me, he will observe my word, and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make our abode with him.
“I saw also the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband…”
“And I did not see a temple in it, for God the Almighty is its temple[the MOST HOLY],also the Lamb is [the HOLY]. And the city has no need of the sun nor of the moon to shine upon it, forthe glory of God lighted it up, and its lampwas the Lamb.”
Blessings, Stephen
The same to you! I hope this helps and the GREATEST of love and peace to you, too, dear Chalam!
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
