Did the first Christians worship Jesus?

by slimboyfat 85 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • debator
    debator

    Hi brotherdan

    The continued history of early Christian does not support your doctrinal stance from John 28. since they continued UNDER INSPIRATION to refer to Jesus's father as their God.

    How do you explain that away?

    And thomas exclamation can be taken to be a reference to like stephens both to Jesus and his father separately. It is too vague to make a strong point against Jesus's own words which are an actual statement of belief and doctrine conserning his Father "the one true God"

    Your reaching with very weak scriptures against Jesus's own words about his Father.

    John 17:1-3

    1 After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, ....that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. Was Jesus mistaken? was Jesus lying? Was thomas more inspired than Jesus? Your understanding cannot harmonise with what Jesus taught concerning his father. Dan outlaw thinks I'm another past poster, actually I think he thinks I am a number of past posters. I am supposedly about 4 different previous posters. It is an aspect about the posters of this site I find bazaar.

  • brotherdan
    brotherdan

    As I said and asked:

    Seriously the lack of reasoning skills you have are amazing. Again, I ask you, is there ANY possibility that you are wrong?

  • debator
    debator

    Since I am following what Jesus himself tells me to believe concerning his Father who I should worship with spirit and truth. If Jesus is wrong then I am wrong.

    It's as simple as that.

    Is Jesus lying when he tells us to worship his father in spirit and truth? Is Jesus lying when he says only to worship and serve Jehovah the God of jews to satan? Is Jesus lying when he says the God of the Jews is his Father?

  • tec
    tec

    I think the early Christians followed Jesus. I think we can speak to Him the same as those who knew him in the flesh did, as if he were alive and standing next to us. He is alive of course, just not here standing next to us in the flesh. I also think Jesus set us an example in all things, and Jesus prayed to His Father.

    We pray to God, we talk and listen to Jesus. That's what I think right now.

    Tammy

  • designs
    designs

    Dunn seems to be following in the footsteps of I.Howard Marshall who wrote 'New Testament Theology'.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    May you all have peace and may I respond? Thank you!

    Doing obeisance is not necessarily the same thing as worshipping. When one does obeisance, one bows before another. As did Joseph's brothers to him in his dreams of the sheaves. As Bathsheba did before David. As many did before the kings of Israel. None of these worshipped those they bowed before, however. Obeisance is, really, just a demonstration of respect.

    DId 1st century christians worship Christ? Yes... and no. They did obeisance to him... yes. And in doing such obeisance... they worshipped him. Just as we are to do today: KISS... the SON! However, they did not RENDER SACRED SERVICE before him. They did not worship him as their God. That service is reserved for the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies. I am permitted to give you two examples to help you "see" - worship in the tabernacle and temple... and Joseph and Pharoah.

    In BOTH instances... the people had to bow down and make their offerings to the High Priest (in the first instance) and Joseph (in the second instance). So, in BOTH instance, the people "worshipped" at the feet of these. BUT... it was not these who the people were worshipping. These merely served as the REFLECTIONS... the ones APPOINTED/ESTABLISHED... for the people to bow down to... IN PLACE... of the Most Holy One of Israel. And it was these, the High Priest... and Joseph... who would enter in before JAH (the Most Holy)... or Pharoah... and BRING such "worship."

    So that, in coming to make an offering to God, one would approach the High Priest FIRST... and do obeisance to that one... in OBEDIENCE AND RESPECT... to the One who established him in that position. But one was ultimately APPROACHING... God. In the same way, in coming to make a petition before Pharoah, one would approach JOSEPH... FIRST... and do obeisance to him... as the one established BY Pharoah in that position. But one was ultimately APPROACHING... Pharoah.

    Neither the High Priest... nor Joseph... were to be the OBJECT of worship.

    And it is the same today. We CANNOT enter into the Most Holy without going THROUGH the Holy. So, it is before the HOLY that we must do obeisance... FIRST. However, it is NOT the Holy that we worship. Rather, we must go THROUGH him... to get TO the Most Holy... and worship.

    In like manner, we CANNOT enter in before Pharoah without being granted to do so by Joseph. So, it is before JOSEPH that we must do obeisance... FIRST. However, it is NOT Joseph that we must worship. Rather, we must go THROUGH him... to get TO Pharoah... and make our petition.

    Thus, we cannot enter in before the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, without being granted to do so by Christ. So, it is before CHRIST that we must do obeisance... FIRST. However, it is NOT Christ that we must worship. Rather, we must go THROUGH him... to get to the Father... and render our sacred service, offering our petition... and complete our worship.

    And in ALL of these instances we can ask that the High Priest, Joseph... the Holy... Christ... go in and offer such worship/petition... FOR us.

    And the first century christians knew this. Because unlike many today... who have to rely on what a book of writings seems to say... or seems to NOT say... THEY... relied directly on that High Priest/Joseph/Holy... Christ... who either taught them directly... or by means of the anointing with holy spirit which he gave them.

    Again, I bid you all peace... and ears to hear and get the sense of these things, if you so wish them.

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • glenster
  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Yeah that response by Hurtado was linked in my first post.

    It's a shame if the discussion about whether the first Christians worshipped Jesus is stripped down to a debate over the precise meaning of obeisance in this or that verse. Dunn's discussion of the topic offers so much more than that. It asks interesting questions surrounding not only the (many different) terms describing worship, but also what the patterns of prayer and hymns in the New Testament reveal, as well as the Jewish context in which early Christian practice developed, and possible precedents for the status of Jesus in relation to God.

  • debator
    debator

    I actually agree with you Slim. Discussion on obeisance really takes away from the fact the Bible clearly shows doctrinely only Jehovah should be worshipped. And though the Early christians recognised Jesus as his son and saviour they did not feel the need to worship him as they did his father honour? yes! but worship? No.

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat

    Indeed debator, and to the extent that Jesus was given honour or worship it was always to the glory of the Father. Dunn references another work by a younger scholar under his tutelage called J F McGrath that looks like it would also be worth reading: The Only True God: Early Christian Monotheism in its Jewish Context.

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Only-True-God-Christian-Monotheism/dp/025203418X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1284317058&sr=1-1

    Dunn quotes McGrath on the significance of God sharing his name with Jesus in Phil 2:5-11 (page 107 n.34):

    "God here shares his own exalted status with Jesus in a way that does not jeopardise God's ultimate supremacy... In ancient Judaism, God could empower his agent to wield his full power and authority, precisely because any figure so empowered always remained by definition subject and subordinate to the one empowering him, namely God. (The Only True God 49-52)"

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