Did the first Christians worship Jesus? (page 3)

brotherdan

He's going to use OT references where obeisance shown towards men to say that this was not LITERAL worship, but it was merely "respect". Am I right, debator?

The meaning of worship is set by Jesus and the jewish commandments and that is his father Jehovah who is worshiped alone. The choice before me is create a complex piece of unbiblical fiction so I can get past calling Jesus a liar and the commandment lies(and don't quite manage that) or simply accept that the usage of proskuneo is obeisance (one of it's multiple meanings) rather than worship which can only be used on his father Jehovah?

The Bible and Jesus sets the precedent that worship can only be done to his father the one true God Jehovah in spirit and truth.

brotherdan

Jesus never called his father Jehovah. Did you know that, Debator?

agonus

Chucky was all for worshiping Christ, but Freddy put a stop to that when he realized (correctly) that worship of Christ was a threat to the Organization. Which is why I'm all for it.

bennyk

And Charles Taze Russell also prayed to Jesus.

But what is interesting is that the Society really simply does not honor Jesus much at all. (Even at his own Memorial.)

And that is precisely why Dubs think in terms of 'Jehovah and His Organisation' and pretty much ignore Jesus. The cardboard cut-out Jesus they know is clearly not viewed as the living Head of the Church. He is not their Mediator. He is not viewed as the 'One into whose hand the Father has given all things'. The Organisation is viewed as having received everything...

debator

Hi brotherdan

He refered to his father and made it clear his father was YHWH/Jehovah the God of the Jews

Are you saying Jesus didn't recognise YHWH/Jehovah the God of the Jews as his father?

John 8:54
Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.

What is your point trying to acheive?

That the jews were a random people who worship a God Jesus didn't know? erm Jesus was a Jew! and they worshiped Jehovah as their one true God and Jesus referenced this very scripture in his words to satan.

Presumably quoting using YHWH/Jehovah the tetragamation

Matthew 4:10
Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship Jehovah your God, and serve him only.' "

Are you one of the group that say God changed his mind 2 thirds of the way through the bible and decided not to use his name? even if that was the case. Jesus was still refering to Jehovah who is his father and the God of the jews.

Whether he said Jehovah or not really isn't relevent to the issue since he clearly indicated it is his father who was the God of the jews and it is to him they should render worship.

Actually your case might have been stronger (but unlikely) if he said Jehovah (allowing what current early greek manuscripts which are not the originals say) because trinitarians try to say Jesus is Jehovah but Jesus makes it clear his father is the God of the jews and the one they should worship with spirit and truth.

John 4:23
Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

brotherdan

PRESUMABLY quoting YHWH? So there is a possibility that they didn't? Hmmm...looks like a hole.

Here's the fact. You DON'T know how the divine name was even pronounced. You DON'T know that Jesus and his apostles ever even USED the name. When he taught us to pray he DIDN'T say to pray to "Jehovah". He prayed to the Father.

You say it's not a relevant issue, however your demonic organization says that this is the very PROOF that they are a true religion. So nice job lying.

Show me in the Bible where it says I CAN'T pray to Jesus?

brotherdan

I'm not even really sure about the trinity...but I know that the Bible strongly indicates it. I stole this from my other post on your good buddy MadJW's thread:

Compare these scriptures:

Isaiah 43:11 - "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour."

compare with:

Acts 4:12 - "Neither is there salvation in any other (than Jesus): for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved."

Also compare these:

Isaiah 44:24 - "I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself."

compare with:

Col 1:16 - "By him [Jesus] were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth...all things were created by him, and for him"

Also compare these:

Isaiah 41:4 - "I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he."

compare with:

Rev 1:17 - "Jesus said, "Fear not; I am the first and the last:"

Also compare these:

Psalms 71:22 - I will also praise you with the psaltery, even thy truth,O my God: unto thee will I sing with the harp, O thou Holy One of Israel.

compare with:

Acts 13:34,35 - "And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David. Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

Also compare these:

Isaiah 42:8 - I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another...

compare with:

John 17:5 - And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

debator

Hi brotherdan

I'm saying it's not relevent to this issue here where you have to try and prove worship of Jesus or Jesus advocating worship of himself. Which none of which have been shown. Since Jesus makes it clear it his his FATHER who is worshiped and who is the God of the Jews.

The argument for use of Jehovah's name is a red herring to this discussion since it doesn't change Jesus's recognition of his father as the one true God and his father.

I am not an advocate of slicing off two thirds of the bible and dumping them in a dumpster to prove doctrine. YHWH/Jehovah is used in the bible as God's name nearly 7000 times that for me is definitive. Plus the fact Jesus openly quoted without correction scriptures using his father's name. He also refered to his father's name not least of which matt 6:9

Matthew 6:9 (New International Version)

9 "This, then, is how you should pray:
" 'Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,

Are you saying his father had some other name Jesus was refering too?

Are you really prepared to go down the whole Jehovah/YHWH isn't God's name root just to prove your point?

brotherdan

I'm actually not really trying to prove a point with YOU debator. I know that you will not listen to a word anyone says unless they are the GB. I'm writing what I'm writing so that others that read this thread will see how ridiculous your views are. I changed the subject to the topic of the divine name, because I ALREADY proved my point about the trinity...using the Bible. If God created the universe ALONE and then the NT says that Jesus created it...well if the Bible does NOT contradict iteself you have to conclude that Jesus is God. If God says HE ALONE is the savior and Jesus says HE is the savior...well...

However, I have NEVER heard a valid argument about the divine name. If God allowed his name to stop being used, then it was not the actual TITLE that was important. For example. I love my dad. It would be great disrespect for me to call him by his name. I call him Dad because I love him. If I disrepected him I'd use his literal name. So go ahead and think that you know God more because you use a man made name that humans created out of mixing YHWH with Adonai. You just make yourself look foolish.

Did the first Christians worship Jesus?

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