*Grace* According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

by Lily Pie 272 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  debator

  Hi deputy Dog

  You are mixing two different things.

  I have faith in Jehovah and the assurance of salvation through his underserved kindness covering over my imperfection that I simply cannot earn.

  But works is separate to this. Jesus and the apostles knew that there would be many people in this time "having a form of Godly devotion" but it will prove false and how do we recognise these? They say they have faith by word but their "works" do not show this in truth.

  True Faith inspires works! faith in God's salvation would make it impossible for you not to preach and hope his words saves others as it also reached you.

  People that deny "works" are simply realising the inherent lack of faith in themselves knowing it does not push them as it should if it was real faith. But that is between themselves and Jehovah.

  At Armageddon (time of the end) the difference between those with true faith in Jehovah and his son's sacrifice and those that have a false faith will be marked and simply by if their works matches what is coming out of their mouths.

  Why would a person accept fornication, adultery, idolatry etc if it is unpleasing to their God? They would be fighting against all things unpleasing to God and doing his will because their Faith in Jehovah inspires them towards repentance and righteousness rather than wallowing in sin.
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  designs

  'Wallowing In Sin' sounds like an 80s Disco Movie.

  Armageddon and Hell, see how they are related with the groups that buy into the ideas around a God who loves you and will punish you.

  Read Joseph Campbell's- The Power Of Myth, every culture going back to the Stone Age developed these same ideas, its Zeus and Perseus Redux.

  Like Rabbi Hillel said- Just be good. You'll be fine, plant a tree, make it a Sequoia, it will be around in 400 years and your great great great grandchildren can come by and visit it.
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  Deputy Dog

  debator

  But works is separate to this. Jesus and the apostles knew that there would be many people in this time "having a form of Godly devotion" but it will prove false and how do we recognise these? They say they have faith by word but their "works" do not show this in truth.

  I completely agree. Jesus talked about that in John 7

  Mat 7:22

  "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

  Groups like the JWs claim to do works in the name of YHWH.

  The problem you fail to address is, you put your faith in your works, not in your savior.

  True Faith inspires works! faith in God's salvation would make it impossible for you not to preach and hope his words saves others as it also reached you.

  I would have to correct that by stating it this way True Faith inspires TRUE works. The criminal in Luke 23 understood this. But you struggle just as those in John 6

  Joh 6:28

  Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."

  People that deny "works" are simply realising the inherent lack of faith in themselves knowing it does not push them as it should if it was real faith. But that is between themselves and Jehovah.

  I'm glad you are so righteous and smart as to know how hard it should push you, please tell us all, how YOU know when YOU have done or are doing enough to confirm YOUR "real" faith.

  I don't know in what way you think I'm denying the fact that faith produces works, I'm not denying that at all.

  Why would a person accept fornication, adultery, idolatry etc if it is unpleasing to their God?

  By "etc" do you mean things like pedophilia and those who hide such things from authorities and/or those who practice self-righteousness? Good question. Why does the Watchtower encourage their followers to wallow in sin?

  Maybe you could tell us why you accept your sin, or, would you have us to believe you have none?
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  Deputy Dog

  Lily Pie

  What do Jehovahs Witnesses think of Christendoms take on *Grace* and the importance of active faith over works?

  What do Jehovah's Witnesses actually believe both privately and publicly on the effect of Christs ransom on salvation?

  Any other comments?

  As you can see JWs can't separate works from grace as the bible clearly does.

  For example: debator asks "Why would a person accept fornication, adultery, idolatry etc if it is unpleasing to their God? They would be fighting against all things unpleasing to God and doing his will because their Faith in Jehovah inspires them towards repentance and righteousness rather than wallowing in sin.

  She does not understand the nature of the concept of *Grace* as a Christian would. The Christian would connect "Works" to faith, but not directly to Grace as the JW would.

  Paul saw this clearly, even in the old testament.

  Rom 4:7 "BLESSED ARE THOSE WHOSE LAWLESS DEEDS HAVE BEEN FORGIVEN, AND WHOSE SINS HAVE BEEN COVERED. 8 "BLESSED IS THE MAN WHOSE SIN THE LORD WILL NOT TAKE INTO ACCOUNT."

  This is Paul quoting David

  Psa 32:1

  A Psalm of David. A Maskil. How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered! 2 How blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no deceit!

  David is clearly NOT talking about someone who is "wallowing in sin".
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  Ding

  Law says DO.

  Grace says DONE.
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  Deputy Dog

  Debator

  2 days and no response?

  People that deny "works" are simply realising the inherent lack of faith in themselves knowing it does not push them as it should if it was real faith. But that is between themselves and Jehovah.

  I'm glad you are so righteous and smart as to know how hard it should push you, please tell us all, how YOU know when YOU have done or are doing enough to confirm YOUR "real" faith.

  Faith in themselves about says it all about JWs.

  That's called "SELF" righteousness.
• 

  mrsjones5

  People that deny "works" are simply realising the inherent lack of faith in themselves knowing it does not push them as it should if it was real faith. But that is between themselves and Jehovah.

  Let's turn that around:

  People who tout "works" as a vehicle for salvation are simply denying the sacrifice of Christ and have bought into the idea that the works that they do have the power to save them. Basically saying to Christ "I got this, you're not needed." They cheapen the idea of grace because it seems too simple, they don't understand it.

  The watchtower has taken it a step further and told the rank and file that the benefits of the sacrifice of Christ is not for them - it's for the 140,000 and the FDS, the rank and file gets the crumbs that they have to work for and only the bOrg is able to tell them that they are saved, the rank and file has to has to work, work, work. The bOrg/FDS has usurped Christ, denied the true meaning and power of the sacrifice, and placed themselves in the role of mediator.

  It's a big con, it's a bait and switch, it's a sham and a damn shame.
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  snowbird

  It's a big con, it's a bait and switch, it's a sham and a damn shame.

  Damn skippy, it is.

  It's like Jesus Christ saying, "I've got this," and the WT saying, "No, you don't really have it, let us show you how!"

  Syl
• 

  PSacramento

  Law says DO.

  Grace says DONE

  Actually, the lAw says does this and don't do that and you will "attain" salvation, if God finds you worthy.

  Problem is that NOTHING we can do can make us worthy, only our faith can get us close enough to understand that.

  See, the Law begets pride and pride is the one thing that "blocks" God's saving grace.

  There is nothing we can do that is why God has done ti for us in his Son, our Lord and Savious Jesus Christ.

  Grace is the gift of God, not a gift FROM God, but the gift OF GOD, through his son Jesus.

  Grace doesn't say "done", grace says, "No matter what, I love you and I can't love you anymore or any less because my love is infinite, but I won't force it one you nor force you to love me nor put conditions on that love, I will give it and myself to you, freely and all you have to do is receive Me".
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  Terry

  Grace is meant to tie up the loose ends. It is a plot device, of sorts.

  Just to clear things up we can break it down like this.

  1. If God is a god of JUSTICE and justice is getting what you deserve (as well as NOT getting what you DON'T) then, a sinning human DESERVES death.

  2.Throughout history God killed people; millions. This was JUSTICE because they deserved it.

  3.God would temporarily preserve others to get certain tasks accomplished although those "spared" eventually tasted death, too.

  4.Suddenly, inexplicably, Jesus arrives as the FIRST HUMAN to NOT sin! In NOT sinning, Jesus deserved NO DEATH. This would be an INJUSTICE were an innocent (sinless) person to be punished by death.

  5.According to the CHURCH, God flipped on JUSTICE and turned his own values upside down! The innocent (Jesus) gets the penalty while the guilty (humanity) get pardoned of all crimes!

  6.Why? The CHURCH decided it was so. It would be THEIR JOB to administer the "benefits" of the upside-down non-justice now called GRACE.

  7.The Church drove a wedge between what humans craved (LIFE!) and the penalty of death by placing themselves in the middle as GOD dispensing (through themselves, of course) free non-earned pardon and exemption.

  Jehovah's Witnesses have the GOVERNING BODY acting the same way. God doesn't grant life directly---oh heaven's no! It has to come through tasks administered by the go-between: Watchtower middleman!

  No particle of GRACE was ever true or just or rational. It was always an invented plot-twist to create a functionary INSTITUTION to allow superstitious believers the comfort of "thinking" they weren't going to die or suffer at the hands of an angry god.

  Grace is baloney.

  Everybody will die and it has nothing to do with god or sin. It has everything to do with nature.