*Grace* According to JW's. Your thoughts will be appreciated.

by Lily Pie 272 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Grace has nothing to do with dying, it has to do with what happens after you die.

    Grace is NOT about pardoning ANYONE, it is about Love and just as we would wantingly give of ourselves for our children, God did the same for Us.

    Grace isn't about not having to say you are sorry, it's about recognising that you are sorry and all the spoligising in the world and acts of repentence won't change it, but Grace is what makes those acts of forgiveness and repentence MEAN something because they are done NOT because you want something or are trying to save yourself, they are done because it's the right thing to do and are done out of love.

  • Terry
    Terry

    Grace has nothing to do with dying, it has to do with what happens after you die.

    Is this an example of logic? Of reason? Of clear thinking?

    Dying makes you dead. There can be no "after you die" without dying. Or, had that not ocurred to you?

    The wages sin pays is--what?

    The last enemy is what? The folly of human belief centers on the loss of life and the effort to circumvent dying.

    The leverage God displayed in Eden was the wielding of DEATH as a consequence of disobedience and the Tree of Life was the presumable reward otherwise.

    How silly to think that was what punishable by DEATH in Eden and for the next several millennia was SUDDENLY flipped with the novelty of GRACE!

    God is the Destroyer of Worlds and that destruction is entirely involved in the DYING of human beings. Grace is King's X in the penalty phase.

    Grace is NOT about pardoning ANYONE, it is about Love and just as we would wantingly give of ourselves for our children, God did the same for Us.

    What rot! The basis for Love is Value. The greatest value produces the greatest Love. Why had God merrily extinguished human life at the Flood if He valued humanity WHILE SINFUL? Answer: Mankind in a sinful state had no Value, no merit and no basis for preservation.

    Do you understand this at all? WHERE WAS LOVE when humanity was drowning? Love could not and did not trump JUSTICE!

    What changed at Jesus death concerning man's value? The ludicrous manifestation of TRANSFERABLE VALUE? God seems to be toying with His own value system. The jury is rigged. Justice is thwarted. The criminal gets of scot free and the innocent man dies. All hardly a tribute to Supreme Values in a trancendant God.

    Grace isn't about not having to say you are sorry, it's about recognising that you are sorry and all the apoligising in the world and acts of repentence won't change it, but Grace is what makes those acts of forgiveness and repentence MEAN something because they are done NOT because you want something or are trying to save yourself, they are done because it's the right thing to do and are done out of love.

    Grace requires repentance, right? You don't have to say you are sorry to repent?

    You need to think this through a little better to clear up your confusion.

    A sinful person suddenly doing the right thing out of love is like a pig sprouting wings and flying.

    This is why the church (St. Augustine) had to invent a way for a worthless wretch to sprout wings and repent. The church called it PREvenient Grace.

    Prevenient grace is divine grace which precedes human decision. It exists prior to and without reference to anything humans may have done. As humans are corrupted by the effects of sin, prevenient grace allows persons to engage their God-given free will to choose the salvation offered by God in Jesus Christ or to reject that salvific offer. Whereas Augustine held that prevenient grace cannot be resisted, Wesleyan Arminians believe that it enables, but does not ensure, personal acceptance of the gift of salvation.

    As you can clearly see, this nonsense consists of God causing man to suddenly want to do the right thing while tampering with free will, which I might add, is the very thing God was so desperate to include in Eden as part of man's test!

    If LOVE was in Eden there would have been no need for Adam or Eve to die! Neither God nor mankind found love to be a trump card.

    LOVE has nothing to do with all of this cosmetic persiflage.

    If God valued free will in man he wouldn't interfere with it.

    If God valued Justice he wouldn't punish the guiltless Jesus.

    If God valued Justice he wouldn't grant favor to those who do not merit favor (sinful humans.)

    Trying to create an over-ride and reboot on God's value system by calling it GRACE is just Deus ex machina.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Terry,

    It's ok if you don't agree with me, you don't have too, LOL !

    I stated my humble opinion on the matter and you disagreed and yet, we are both still here and the world hasn't ended :)

    You voice your opinion and I disagree and what happens? the same thing we are both still here and the world hasn't ended :)

    I must say this though, for someone that doesn't believe in God, you seem to be very angry at God.

    Of course if I am seeing something that is not there I apologise and you are free to disagree with me and I bet that we will both stil be here and the world will not have ended.

  • palmtree67
    palmtree67

    Here is the JW version of *grace* as it applies to me:

    I was disfellowshipped a year and half ago.

    Within a short time, I was no longer doing what I was df'ed for. I am currently not doing anything I should be df'ed for. I am truly sorry for what I've done and have made every effort to not do it again. I make every effort to be kind and helpful to others and live a good life.

    Am I acceptable to God? Not according to the JW version of *grace*. According to them, if I die tomorrow, there is no hope for me.

    The only way I could be acceptable to them again is if I DO the things they require. They have put themselves in the position of deciding my fate, and taken my own personal relationship with God out of the equation completely.

  • caliber
    caliber

    Dear Palmtree just always remember this profound statement by Snowbird which I shall carry with me forever more !!

    I left because the WT has usurped the position of Jesus Christ, and subverted the grace of the Father
    .
  • palmtree67
    palmtree67

    Thanks, Caliber.

    I'm actually at peace with my relationship with God now. For the first time in my life.

  • Ding
    Ding

    Palmtree67,

    Jesus said to the Pharisees in Matthew 23:13: "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."

    Of course, no one can really shut the kingdom of heaven because you get there by coming in faith to Jesus, not to some human organization.

  • Elder-Patrol
    Elder-Patrol

    JWs use the term "undeserved kindness" where others use the term "grace". Just as the original Greek term would have been more than a mere "feel-good" term, so the English rendering is more clear when it's more than mere fuzziness. Is not the JW's NWT rendering more clear in verses such as this...

    (Romans 11:6, NWT) Now if it is by undeserved kindness, it is no longer due to works; otherwise, the undeserved kindness no longer proves to be undeserved kindness. [italics added by me]

    (Romans 11:6, NIV) And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

    Similarly, JWs use the term "declared righteous" where others use the terms like "justified" (and "redeemed"). The concepts of "undeserved kindness" and "declared righteousness" are not identical but are complementary. Paul wrote the Galatians that a Christian could "shove aside the undeserved kindness of God", which JWs believe happens when a Christian doesn't allow his faith to move him to godly works. James writes that true faith must result in godly works, and he further writes that a Christian without godly works could not be "declared righteous". You can see how having fuzzy terms would make this discussion much less interesting.

    (Galatians 2:16,21, NWT) [A] man is declared righteous, not due to works of law, but only through faith toward Christ Jesus, even we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, that we may be declared righteous due to faith toward Christ, and not due to works of law, because due to works of law no flesh will be declared righteous. ...21 I do not shove aside the undeserved kindness of God; for if righteousness is through law, Christ actually died for nothing.

    (James 2:21,22,24, NWT) Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he had offered up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 You behold that his faith worked along with his works and by his works his faith was perfected... 24 YOU see that a man is to be declared righteous by works, and not by faith alone.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Elder-patrol,

    The problem with grace as being defined as "undeserved kindness" is that ALL DESERVE kindness, that is a central tenent of Christianity.

  • Elder-Patrol
    Elder-Patrol

    No, Christianity teaches that everyone warrants love, at least principled love (agape).

    It is worth being explicit to clarify that the grace ("undeserved kindness") shown by God is a free gift rather than a general niceness OR a reward that is deserved (or "owed") to humans. Remember Adam and Eve? Christianity (for the most part) teaches that the first humans alienated humankind from God, and (strictly speaking) after that were deserving of death.

    (Romans 5:12,15 NWT) That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned... But it is not with the gift as it was with the trespass. For if by one man’s trespass many died, the undeserved kindness of God and his free gift with the undeserved kindness by the one man Jesus Christ abounded much more to many.

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