Is Forgiveness Overrated?

by leavingwt 195 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Retrovirus

  As a non-jw who has a lot of issues with family, thank you all very much; this thread has clarified my thinking.

  On sin and not-sin, I'm still uncertain. But for me, forgiveness comes with understanding where the person-who-needs-to-be-forgiven is coming from. This certainly does not mean instant return of trust (wish it could! )

  It can also mean understanding what I did to contribute, or allow it to happen. And forgiving myself, which is the hardest of all.

  To bring things back to something relevant to the forum, I'd also say that my fixation with keeping contact with my jw SIL had a lot to do with avoiding these painful areas. And I can see how attractive the wt could look to someone lonely and trying for a new start without doing the hard work of forgiveness.

  Retro
• 

  jay88

  Forgiveness is merely a formality,.... what is there to truly be forgiven for?
• 

  myelaine

  ..."forgiveness" from Charles W. Colson's book, God and the Victim...perhaps this will open people up to different ways of thinking about sin, forgiveness and the "place" the two hold in our own lives. Forgiveness is too often seen as merely an excercise in releasing bad feelings and ignoring past harm, pretending all is well. Yet nothing could be further from the truth. True forgiveness often deepens internal passion and sorrow...a central misunderstanding that fuels many other myths about forgiveness is the notion that we are to "forgive and forget." The concept comes from two major passages of scripture: psalm 24 and jeremiah 31. In psalm 25:6-7, the psalmist asks God not to remember the sins of his youth but instead to remember His mercy and love. in jeremiah 31:34, God says, "I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." Christians are told to be like God, who does not remember sin but forgives wickedness. This would be a good principle to follow were it not for one fact: God does remember sin. We are told that one day we will all appear before God and receive our rewards based on the things done in the body, whether good or bad. God remembers sin and righteousness, and He uses the data to determine our due. When the scriptures say God has taken away our sins as far as the east is from the west (psalm 103:12) and will hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea (micah 7:19), they are using metaphors, not making statements of fact about God's loss of memory... When we try to forget the wrongs we have suffered, we lose our perspective on our personal history. In many casesm we are trying to create a less disturbing and disappointing past. Because we are terrified that we cannot face the past without being overwhelmed by pain, we never taste the wonder of God's forgiveness - both of our own sin and the sin of the those who have harmed us. The effort to erase the past fuels a spirit of independence and denial...forgiveness meant cutting losses, ignoring the pain of the past, and keeping busy enough to outpace the sadness. Yet this kind of detachment dulls the senses and distorts perspective. Zeal to forget blinds to the baggages carried from the past and strengthens determination to remain emotionally distant, rigid, and dogmatic. For most believers, the proof of forgiveness is the absence of anger. It is assumed that if you still feel a stab of betrayal when you see the perpetrator, then you haven't forgiven him. If you still seethe when you remember, then you haven't forgiven him. The proof, so it seems, is in the emotional pudding - strong emotions are evidence you have failed to forgive. Christian thinking about and living of forgiveness have too often been distorted; as a result they seem either cheap or impossible. Many attempt to put their injuries behind them through a dramatic, climactic, once-and-for-all deliverance from anger. They assume that forgiving involves a sudden, marked change from being filled with bitterness and hatred to feeling untroubled peace. Those who hold this view refer to forgiveness as a finished event (it took years before I forgave...) rather than an ongoing work of the Spirit of God. Some people do experience one climactic moment when a transition from bitterness to forgiveness takes place. The problem comes when they assume that the struggle to forgive is then over and the tumultuous feelings resolved. It is naive to believe that fogiving another, whether for a single failure or a lifetime of harm, is ever entirely finished. in truth, the more fully we face the harm we have suffered, the more deeply we must forgive. Forgiving another is an ongoing process, rather than a once in a lifetime event. The once forgiven, always fogiven approach often leads to enormous pressure to keep bad feelings at bay.Are feelings of anger or hurt contray to forgiveness? Listen to the heart of God..."Is not ephraim my dear son, the child in whom I delight? Though I often speak against him, I still remember him. Therefore my heart yearns for him; I have great compassion for him" jer. 31:20 Sin hurts God, and it draws a passionate response from Him. God speaks of His hurt and anger over the sin of His children in deeply personal terms. Our natural response to deep personal pain may be to deaden our hearts to the sorrow. God's way is different. God says He will remember the one who hurt Him, no matter how deep the anguish. God is active in His expression of holy anger. Hurt and anger are not the final proof of a lack of forgiveness. In fact, an absence of strong feelings implies a lack of the heart's involvement. When bitterness is released, there seems to be a propensity to toss holy anger out with it. True, anger can be full of sinful demands. But anger can also be a loving response to someone who has violated the beauty of God's glory and the humaness of others. Anger can reflect a passion that desires to destroy the cancerous arrogance that will eventually sap beauty and life from the offenders soul. If we forsake holy anger the passionate desire to destroy that which comremises what god intended we are apt to detach ourselves from the battle on the grounds that we are exhibiting an unforgiving spirit. We are less likely to deal with the plank in our own eye or the speck of dust in the eye of the one who hurt us. Most people assume that revenge is bad, that the desire for revenge is a base, primitive emotion that has no place in christian society. Unfortunately, we are all apt to dress the concept of forgiveness in garments that are too refined and delicate to handle the battle of life. Many christians view the disire for revenge as incompatible with love and forgiveness. Revenge seems to come from an ugly, bitter heart. But is that necessarily the case? Revenge involves a desire for justice. It is the intense wish to see ugliness destroyed, wrongs righted. Anyone who strays outside the parameters of love and acts to destroy God's order is a weed that might diminish the beauty or destroy the fruitfulness of His garden. But a comittment to God's glory is the heart of true biblical revenge. Many people believe that the person with the forgiving heart turns the other cheek. He accepts emotional and even physical harm without complaint or confrontation. This view is often encouraged by manipulative people. Forgiveness involves a courageous commitment to overcome evil with good and the good that is done is an assult against the inner cancer of arrogance and independence that, left unchecked, will eat away at the offender's soul. Overlooking harm in order to achieve a sentimental but nonsubstantive peace actually encourages sin. A forgiving heart offers a glimps of the mysterious wonder of God's character. The taste of God we have to offer others will be no greater than our own taste of God's forgiveness. Jesus said to Simon, the arrogant, legalistic Pharisee, "He who has been forgiven little loves little." Jeus seems to be saying that the energy to forgive is directly related to our awareness of how much we have been forgiven, or how deeply we deserve God's condemnation. Simon was impressed with his own command of godliness; consequently, he was not drawn to the One who can forgive sin. We need faith to see our own sin because our deceit makes us compare our sin with that of others and blinds us to our own need for forgiveness. Faith occasionally enables us to glimps the depths of why we need God's ongoing mercy. Through faith we see beyond our presumption of innocence and into the heart of the Father who forgives sin. Once we have experienced God's mercy and forgiveness, we will find the energy to cancel others' debts. A taste of His mercy enables us to offer others a taste of it. And we will not stop with offering forgiveness; following God example, we will pursue the one who hurt us for the purpose of reconciliation. We see in action Jesus' cry from the cross: "Father forgive them." When the Lord forgave those who crucified Him, did He grant to each of them, at that moment, a place of eternal intimacy with His Father? I don't think so. I believe He was freeing them from the immediate consequences of killing Him. They deserved the kind of judgement that occurred in the OT when Israelites touched the Ark of the Covenant: instant death. Jesus forstalled their "punishment" by asking for them to be forgiven. But they would have had to respond in repentance and faith, as did the thief who was crucified beside Jesus, in order for God to grant reconciliation.What can we learn here? We must always offer reconciliation when, in the face of rebuke, the offender demonstrates repentance. But we need not extend restoration and peace to someone who has not repented.It is the passionate desire for reconciliation that enables us to offer true forgiveness. Forgiveness that is offered without the deep desire for the offender to be restored to God and to the one who was harmed is at best antiseptic and mechanical. At worst, it is pharisaical self-righteousness. Forgiveness is far far more than a business transaction: it is the sacrifice of a heatbroken father who weeps over the loss of his child and longs to see the child restored to life and love and goodness. Further, a forgiving heart does not wait passively for repentance to occur. Instead, it offers the offender a taste of mercy and strength intended to expose and destroy sin. Good food is neither bitter - strong without mercy - nor saccharine - tender without strength. An enemy faced with the surprise and shame that results from being offered good food will respond with either fury or stunned disbelief. In either case, change will occur. We offer others an understanding of the gift of God's wrath and mercy. It is both a warning (God hates sin) and an invitation (embrace God's goodness and come under the blood of protection) To offer forgiveness, we must have tenderness to show mercy and the strength to confront the enemy's arrogance. love michelle
• 

  AGuest

  While Mr. Colson's views are heartwarming, many of them are inaccurate (may you all have peace!). The following verses and accounts (which I offer since Mr. Colson's views are based on his understanding of what the Bible says on the subject) might help those who wish to "see" that it really boils down to a couple/few things:

  “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive holy spirit. If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

  "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

  “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven."

  "For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins."

  Now, there is NOTHING in these statements that says the one sinning against us must be repentant. Forgiveness is something we must to in order to be "like" God: perfect. As His Son, my Lord, showed, He even forgives His enemies. The man on the pole was not forgiven because of his repentance; he was forgiven... because of his FAITH... IN the One who can forgive. If we look for, indeed require repentance... then where is MERCY? Mercy is UNdeserved kindness. A repentant person deserves "another chance."

  The word "forgive" means to give... BEFORE. FOR... give. It is borne of that act that God did when He gave His Son... for US... even before we came into existence. Our sins were forgiven before they were ever committed... IF, as the man on the pole... our faith in IN the One who CAN so forgive. And in return for such forgiveness he only requires one thing. Not repentance... but that WE forgive those who sin against US.

  The Most Holy One of Israel knows that we will not always be able to forgive. It is hard for HIM; how much more so for US. But to not forgive... when we are sinners ourselves... is a sin. What then? We have a HELPER, Christ:

  "My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father - [Jesus] Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world."

  What does this mean? It means that JAH and Christ know that we WILL sin. Including being unable to forgive someone who has sinned against us. And so, there is an atoning sacrifice for such sin: the blood of Christ. That blood can COVER such sin.

  True... love is the Law's fulfillment and there is no Law against love... and love covers a multitude of transgressions. But what of when we CAN'T show love... when we CAN'T forgive? When we CAN'T, on our own... turn from our error? There is a sacrifice, dear ones... that covers ALL sin (except blasphemy against the Giver of the sacrifice)... for ALL humans... for ALL time.

  There is a very interesting account (Mark 8:1-11) that shows repentance was not required for forgiveness. It is the account of the woman caught in the act of adultery. And it is an account that has been removed from many Bible manuscripts/versions and it is quite understandable why that is. There, my Lord just simply showed the woman MERCY. She didn't ask for it. She didn't say she was going to stop. She didn't beg or plead. She knew she had sinned and, pursuant to the Law, was to be stoned.

  My Lord, however, fulfilled the Law... indeed, SURPASSED it... when, after the woman acknowledged that none of those who accused her now condemned her (once he told them to cast the first stone if they were without sin)... HE said to her, "Neither do I condemn you." He, who could have condemned and stoned her... under the Law. Because he... WAS without sin.

  But he didn't say, "Well, let's see: are you repentant?" or "Do you feel bad/regret what you have done?" "Or, yeah, you look sorry for it." Or "Do you promise not to do it again?" He told her that he didn't condemn her... that her sins WERE forgiven (as in already were and not, would BE if she did/didn't do/showed such and so)... and so to go her way.

  A final note: most Bible versions conclude this account with my Lord saying to the woman, "Go and sin no more." That is NOT what he said to her. He to her the same as he said... and says... to me when I confessed... and yet confess... my sins to him: "Go. Your sin... IS NO MORE."

  And he truly does not keep account of the injury... because once his blood washes you... there IS no injury.

  I hope this helps and bid you all peace!

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  tec

  Shelby - Maybe most people have to experience having done someone else a terrible wrong, and hope for forgiveness - even been granted it - in order to understand that granting forgiveness, deserved or not, is a mercy we should also show others. I know I have to feel something to really grasp it. But mercy IS something that isn't deserved, and it comes from love.

  It also often inspires love in return.

  Tammy
• 

  myelaine

  dear AGuest...

  I think the nuance you may have missed in the section talking about forgiveness and repentance is that the person that had done the harm may not have had a relationship with Jesus. Like the thief on the cross the act of turning to Jesus was repenting...a turning away from death. (he responed to Jesus with repentance and faith)...therefore he was reconciled with God and would be in the kingdom.

  John the Baptist called people to repent...turn to God (repent) for the kingdom is near...and they were baptized, confessing their sins.

  Colson said:"But they would have had to respond in repentance and faith, as did the thief who was crucified beside Jesus, in order for God to grant reconciliation"..."We must always offer reconciliation when, in the face of rebuke, the offender demonstrates repentance. But we need not extend restoration and peace to someone who has not repented. It is the passionate desire for reconciliation that enables us to offer true forgiveness. Forgiveness that is offered without the deep desire for the offender to be restored to God..."

  ...so above the desire (or not) to be reconciled to the one doing the harm, whether with a show of repentance (toward you) or not ...a forgiving heart would want the person to be reconciled to God.

  love michelle

  p.s. I would also like to note for you that my previous post is a condensed version of the chapter on forgiveness...there were personal stories and more in depth study of biblical texts in the "forgiveness" chapter of that book.
• 

  AGuest

  Maybe most people have to experience having done someone else a terrible wrong, and hope for forgiveness - even been granted it - in order to understand that granting forgiveness, deserved or not, is a mercy we should also show others.

  And THAT is the saddest thing, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!)... because they HAVE done someone else a terrible wrong: God and Christ. Most just want to "rank" sin and decide for themselves... and others... what "terrible" is. To US, it's something like stealing or robbing or raping or killing, molesting, etc. That is "terrible"... to US. To the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and His Son, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, however... something like just walking past and ignoring someone in need... and virtually every one of us have done that at some point or another... is a terrible wrong.

  dear AGuest...

  Michelle... peace to you.

  I think the nuance you may have missed in the section talking about forgiveness and repentance is that the person that had done the harm may not have had a relationship with Jesus.

  A relationship with Christ is not required for a person to be forgiven, Michelle. Love is a DEBT we ALL owe one another... regardless of whether one is repentant, faithful, or joined to Christ.

  Like the thief on the cross the act of turning to Jesus was repenting...a turning away from death. (he responed to Jesus with repentance and faith)...therefore he was reconciled with God and would be in the kingdom.

  I disagree. He responded with FAITH... which LED to repentance. Not repentance which led to faith, which is what you are suggesting. But at no time did he suggest he was sorry for what he had DONE. He was sorry that he might lose his eternal life as a result of what he had done... and he KNEW that my Lord could change that. He had FAITH in my Lord that he could change that. And so he asked... in FAITH... to be remembered. Hre is the account:

  "One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “[Jesus], remember me when you come into your kingdom.”

  The man didn't indicate repentance. He realized that my Lord WAS the Son of God... because he had done nothing WORTHY of being impaled. It was this knowledge... and faith IN it... that prompted him to ASK to be remembered. All he had to do was ASK of my Lord... in FAITH... and it would be granted. And that's all it took. He didn't have to say, "Look, [Jesus], I'm really sorry for what I did and so please have mercy on me." ALL he had to do was ACKNOWLEDGE that Christ WAS the Son of God... which he did when he asked to be remembered when "YOU come into YOUR kingdom." Not, "IF you really are Christ and come into a kingdom, then please remember me." He KNEW my Lord was the Christ.

  John the Baptist called people to repent...turn to God (repent) for the kingdom is near...and they were baptized, confessing their sins.

  Which people, Michelle? The people under the Law. I.e., fleshly Israel. That is why John baptised with water FIRST... but said there was one coming after him who would baptize... in fire. Because water... cleanses the flesh. Remember Naaman? Remember the washing requirements of the priests? But holy spirit... "fire"... cleanses both the body AND the spirit.

  Colson said:"But they would have had to respond in repentance and faith, as did the thief who was crucified beside Jesus, in order for God to grant reconciliation"...

  And this is an error. Nowhere it is written that the Most Holy One of Israel requires a man to be repentant. He requires... a man to be FAITHFUL... to have FAITH. Because it is FAITH that LEADS to repentance, not the other way around.

  "We must always offer reconciliation when, in the face of rebuke, the offender demonstrates repentance.

  Yes.

  But we need not extend restoration and peace to someone who has not repented.

  And this statement is a huge error. Why? Because it leaves it to US... to try and read a man's HEART! Which we CANNOT do. Just because someone begs, whines, hangs their head, acts all "meeky"... even SAYS they're "sorry"... does NOT mean they're repentant, Michelle. Those are just physical demonstrations that MIGHT indicate repentance... but that may not necessarily be true. On the OTHER hand, someone who stands firm, does not apologize, does not so demonstrate may be absolutely repentant... in their heart! While they may not be asking YOU for forgiveness, they very WELL may be asking GOD/Christ. How do you KNOW? You don't. Either way.

  But it doesn't matter: the command is not to forgive "those who are repentant" and you will be forgiven. It is to FORGIVE... period. And you will be forgiven.

  It is the passionate desire for reconciliation that enables us to offer true forgiveness. Forgiveness that is offered without the deep desire for the offender to be restored to God..."

  Both of these are errors. There is one reason for which we offer TRUE forgiveness: love. WE love... regardless of whether the offender does or not. WE feel compassion and pity... as a result of that love... and so want NO ONE to "suffer"... even an evildoer. Again, OUR love is not always PERFECT... and so, there are times and situations where we just CAN'T forgive. Which is a sin. But for that... we have a helper. Christ.

  ...so above the desire (or not) to be reconciled to the one doing the harm, whether with a show of repentance (toward you) or not ...a forgiving heart would want the person to be reconciled to God.

  Our forgiveness has absolutely NO bearing on whether the one forgiven will be reconciled to God. Indeed, that one might even think us fools FOR forgiving him/her... as he/she would NOT be so forgiving. They may think, "That idiot isn't mad at me?? They're not going to turn me in, tell on me? What a patsy!" Doesn't matter, though - as someone truthfully said, forgiving is NOT for the offender but for the offended. One forgives because one LOVES... and because one wants to BE forgiven for HIS/HER sins... against God.

  You are still following man, Michelle... and still throwing out your own teachings... rather than following the Ones who set the example FOR us at to what forgiveness is and why we should do it. You don't get it... because you don't get him. You don't get him... because you continually blaspheme him. You will learn, however, that he in the One of whom you SHOULD have said, "Blessed is he." You didn't. And so, you continue to "wander" in the "wilderness"... trying to get to the Promised Land. 'Round and round in circles you go, always "learning"... but never coming to an ACCURATE knowledge of the truth. Because you do not know the Truth, Christ.

  Again, peace to you both...

  A slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  tec

  And THAT is the saddest thing, dear tec (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!)... because they HAVE done someone else a terrible wrong: God and Christ. Most just want to "rank" sin and decide for themselves... and others... what "terrible" is. To US, it's something like stealing or robbing or raping or killing, molesting, etc. That is "terrible"... to US. To the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies... and His Son, the Holy One of Israel and Holy Spirit, however... something like just walking past and ignoring someone in need... and virtually every one of us have done that at some point or another... is a terrible wrong.

  I know. I agree. I've done it. I think that it was when I did this - after having learned that this is a terrible sin against both the one in need and God and Christ - that I realized how forgiveness is something we should give, out of mercy and love for the offender and out of love for Christ. I am absolutely no better than any man who sins against me.

  Love and peace to you,

  Tammy
• 

  bohm

  what i dont understand is if christians are so keen on forgiveness, why do they worship a God who will rather murder than forgive a trivial transgression one of his subjects was tricked into performing?

  Tell me it is not so: God would rather murder Adam and Eve than forgive them for a crime any of us would forgive in an instant, disobeying a single command.
• 

  tec

  God did not murder Adam and Eve. Their death came as a consequence of what they did. What they now knew, as in experienced. What God warned them against doing.