What is it with all the men waking up but the wives stay in? Why is it the opposite for me?

by Cadellin 80 Replies latest jw experiences

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  TD

  So I posit a contrary conclusion: JW women taking longer to leave, or choosing not to leave, is often times a LOGICAL and RATIONAL and REASONABLE response to the situation in which they find themselves.

  Interesting. It shows there's always two ways to look at the situation.

  If you look at it from the standpoint of which spouse develops doubts and leaves first the observation is certainly relevant

  The situation changes somewhat when one spouse is already out and would be overjoyed if their mate would join them.

  Like I've already said, I completely disagree with the think/feel cliche, but I'm intimately familiar with the slack-jawed glazed look when logic runs into cognitive dissonance. People with higher IQ's are believed to be actually more susceptible to high control groups
• 

  Justitia Themis

  The situation changes somewhat when one spouse is already out and would be overjoyed if their mate would join them.

  Valid commments TD. But, I think that situation still goes back to being taught that you need to look to an authority figure (husband OR GB) because you are not capable of making good decisions. They just replace one authority (husband) with another (GB and now the husband is stupid for leaving).

  Men think but "women feel" and so they must question the rationality of their decisions against a male litmus test.

  One thing that hasn't been considered is what a wife may think of her husband's decision-making abilities. Many JW husbands aren't exactly stellar in that arena; perhaps these women have thought their husbands were pretty ignorant all along and now discount their decision to leave the org? ...just sayin!

  Another factor might be the husband's spirituality. MOST of the brothers in the KH didn't know as much as I did about JW theology. If a JW woman's husband consistently is scratching some underlining marks in his Watchtower 15 minutes before the meeting starts, and that is representative of his general approach to spiritual things, why SHOULD she trust his decision to leave? If she doesn't feel he has the prerequisite spirituality to make good decisions, then it would irrational for her to follow him. I was married to a MS, and I left first. My husband didn't/doesn't know sh*t about JWs despite being one for decades. I did not then, nor do I now, put much value on his spiritual thoughts.

  I'm trying to be gentle, but the bottom line is that perhaps the women who aren't following their husbands out of JWs haven't really thought much of their husbands for quite some time...
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  TD

  I don't see why speculation on the demographics needs to be uncomplimentary to either sex.

  People who leave a high control group for ideological reasons almost universally experience an intense complusion to study. That compulsion typcially proceeds the actual decision to leave by a year or so and lasts for several years afterwards. That's one of the attractions of internet discussion boards and especially internet debate with active members where every stock argument and canned response is thoroughly deconstructed. It validates the decision to leave.

  And that's exactly why the internet is so dangerous to these groups. Active members are in way over their heads with ex-members because the latter have the unfair advantage of knowing everything that will be said beforehand. The average JW, if caught unprepared couldn't even tell you how to get to 1914 using Daniel 4 as a starting point. The average ex-JW can explain why 539 is secularly established with data and methods antithetical to 607. Female or male, the believing JW in a marriage is hardly a match for the one who has left for idealogical reasons. (i.e. An "Apostate")

  When it comes to authority and manipulation by authority are men more "immune" than women? Milgram and Burger both found that women are no more susceptible / men are every bit as susceptible to coercion from an authority figure. When it comes to obedience to the GB, JW men arguably receive more conditioning in this regard, not less.

  Studies for decades have shown that women are simply more religious than men. It's not tied to age, education level, geographic area or income. Women are the backbone of most congregations regardless of the denomination.
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  Violia

  I tend to agree that men probably do see the doctrinal issues quicker than women. I agree with sleeping beauty's assessment- women with children are too busy raising their children ( if they are a good parent) to spend much time on these DB's.

  I agree with MLW that women who get excluded Will leave quicker, happened to me. Men have their own hierarchy in the Cong. and if a man is not reaching out or the unbelieving mate of a well loved sister- he's outed. that will make him start checking out the wts.

  Jws are responsible for their own loses for most part. Their hateful shunning polices ( even after a person is reinstated ) force many folks out who would have stayed with an ounce of encouragement. They just don't care, the "mother' org is more important to them than other humans.
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  miseryloveselders

  I tend to agree that men probably do see the doctrinal issues quicker than women.

  I wonder if it can be compared to men recognizing the dishonesty of auto mechanics quicker than women?

  I agree with the thoughts expressed in this thread about the generalizations of men and women are really outdated modes of thinking. Women aren't Lucille Ball stereotypes any longer. Those days are over. There's some dynamic women in this world today. When it comes to doctrinal issues though, women have always seemed to be on the ball. I'm thinking about women in my congregation as I'm typing this, and they're the ones who do the bulk of commenting, and field service. They're the ones who study, and prepare for meetings. Quite a few of them are single too, so it is a good question as to why men see through the bull shyt quicker than women. I've seen women come and go in this religion, most however due to them finding better relationships outside of the Kingdom Hall, as in boyfriends or husbands. That certainly would coincide with the emotional generalization. At the same time, who's to say that those same women didn't see through the doctrinal nonsense and had already made up their mind what they were going to do. It's not like they're around for me to ask them which came first, the potential husband, or the last generation adjustment? I don't know, good thread question though.
• 

  Justitia Themis

  When it comes to authority and manipulation by authority are men more "immune" than women? Milgram and Burger both found that women are no more susceptible / men are every bit as susceptible to coercion from an authority figure.

  I don't think M's and B's studies apply in this situation. It's been a while since I studied that, but did any of those test subjects have prior relationships with their authority figures that would impact their response? I don't think so. I think the unequal bargaining power in the on-going relationship structures is incredibly relevant. The...you've-never-met-me-before-but- hey-shock-this-person-or-else context is only marginally applicable.

  Studies for decades have shown that women are simply more religious than men. It's not tied to age, education level, geographic area or income. Women are the backbone of most congregations regardless of the denomination.

  I found your comment to be both counter-intuitive and contrary to what I thought I remembered reading/studying, so I did a modicum research (10 minutes), and your claim appears to be incorrect.

  Educational levels appear to be very predictive on both sides of the equation: higher educational level, working > less conservative Christian values : Increased Christian values > lower educational attainment

  By: Gonsoulin, Margaret E. . Sociological Spectrum , Mar/Apr2010, Vol. 30 Issue 2, p220-240, 21p, 1 Diagram, 4 Charts ; Abstract: Theoretically derived measures and hypotheses concerning the connection between family ideology, gender ideals, and status attainment levels of conservative Christian women are examined in the twenty-first century. Conservative Christian women have a more intensive view of mothering, a stronger prolife stance, a younger age of childbearing, a higher number of children and a lower education level. These trends tend to intensify for women who convert to conservative churches after the age of 16 and reduce for women who engage in wage-work. A belief in Biblical inerrancy directly reduces educational attainment as does a higher intensity of mothering, a younger age of childbearing, and higher number of children. While there is no discernible direct effect of religiosity on income level, there is an indirect effect that is important to note. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR] ; DOI: 10.1080/02732170903496141 ; ( AN 47926776 )

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  By: Skarupski, Kimberly A.; Fitchett, George; Evans, Denis A.; Mendes de Leon, Carlos F. . Aging & Mental Health , Sep2010, Vol. 14 Issue 7, p779-789, 11p ; Abstract: Objectives: The objectives of this study were to describe the levels of daily spiritual experiences (DSEs) in community-dwelling older adults, to compare the levels of spiritual experiences with the levels of prayer and religious service attendance, and to examine the demographic and psychosocial correlates of spiritual experiences. The data came from 6534 participants in the Chicago Health and Aging Project, an ongoing population-based, biracial (65% African American) study of the risk factors for incident Alzheimer's disease among older adults. A 5-item version of the Daily Spiritual Experiences Scale (DSES) was used in the study. Multivariable linear regression models were used to examine the relationship between sociodemographic and psychosocial factors and DSES scores. Results: The majority of the participants reported having spiritual experiences at least daily. In the bivariate analyses, African Americans and women had higher DSES scores than Whites and men, respectively (p's < 0.001). Prayer and worship were moderately associated with DSES scores. In the multivariable analyses, African American race, older age, female gender, better self-rated health, and greater social networks were associated with higher DSES scores, while levels of higher educationand depressive symptoms were associated with lower DSES scores. Conclusion: We observed high levels of spiritual experiences and found that the DSES is related to, but distinct from the traditional measures of religiosity . We found associations between DSES, demographic, and psychosocial factors that are consistent with the findings for other religiosity and spirituality (R/S) measures. Future research should test whether DSES contributes to our understanding of the relationship between R/S and health in older adults. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR] ; DOI: 10.1080/13607861003713265

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  Of course, women have only recently been allowed the luxury of earning an income that allows them to choose their life, so it will be very interesting to see what the data are in say 50 years. I suspect trending will definitely show a link between women/education/$ and lack of religiosity.

  I don't have an issue with the demographics; they are useful analytical tools. I have issues with the short-sighted use of demographics to make rash generalizations, e.g., women are more religious, ergo, women are more emotional.

  Also, if not social, from where does this difference arise? The only other option would be DNA, and there is more of a genetic difference between a Black and a White than between a male and a female. So, on its face, that doesn't explain the differences. Perhaps on-going reasearch concerning the "religiosity gene" will support your conclusion.?? But if it were simple genetics, then education shouldn't impact it. ...tons to study

  ...again...perhaps it is the third option...perhaps the women aren't following their husbands because they just don't think much of their husband's decisions...

  I'm tapping out of this thread, though it has provided some lovely breaks and interesting posts. I am trying to outline for exams...sigh...
• 

  TD

  Justitia,

  I enjoy discussing this too especially with someone like you. It's fascinating. I read your quotes with interest and don't think they contradict what I said:

  Studies for decades have shown that women are simply more religious than men. It's not tied to age, education level, geographic area or income. Women are the backbone of most congregations regardless of the denomination.

  This is not an assertion that religious affliation and spirituality are independent of age, education level, geographic area or income. The untruthfulness of that idea is common knowledge (Or should be) and is certainly not the antecedent of "It's not tied to...." in what I said.

  It's an assertion that the stated phenomenon (i.e. "Women are simply more religious than men") is true at all ages, education levels, geographic areas and incomes. --Something that Skarupski et al do not disagree with.

  This statement by Dr. Satoshi Kanazawa is fairly typical:

  "The sex differences in religiosity are greater in some countries (Russia) than in others (US). It is present in societies with very high levels of religiosity (Ghana, Poland, Nigeria) and in those with very low levels of religiosity (China, Japan, Estonia). It is present in all six populated continents, regardless of the particular religion involved (Catholicism in Italy and Spain, Protestantism in Germany and Sweden, Russian Orthodox in Russia and Belarus, Islam in Turkey and Azerbaijan, Shintoism in Japan, indigenous religions in Ghana, and even official atheism in China). Women are more religious than men in virtually every society surveyed. Nor is this a contemporary phenomenon. Historical records show that the sex differences in religiosity existed throughout human history."
• 

  Justitia Themis

  OK...I outlined Contracts for four more hours; I need a break.

  You know what TD, I think we agree. If I understand you correctly, you are saying that professional women will be more religious than professional men, and that at each social data point, a woman at that data point will be more religious than a man at the data point. That I agree with. I misunderstood your post to say that education, for example, has no effect on one's religiosity.

  So, again. I agree with you. But that brings us back to the why. I still suspect it is social conditioning. If it is not social, it must be DNA, which means there is only one place it could be: the X sex chromosome, and since we pass an X to our sons, it would have to be recessive.

  And if it truly were DNA, then educational levels, and other social constraints, would NOT affect women's religiosity, because their DNA would compel them. But it does affect religiosity, so that seems to point towards a social causal relationship.

  It will be interesting to follow this over time to see how the figures trend as more girls born with opportunity reach adulthood. Just look at the recent social earthquake regarding divorce. The figures for those 50+ and in long-term (20 year or so) marriages who file for divorce flipped. It used to be men ditching their wives for younger women; now the women far exceed the men in filing for divorce. They are called Tipper Gores. They aren't leaving to find someone else, and they usually do NOT want another man; they simply are just sick of their "Al's." They have the money now to live on their own, the kids are gone, and so are they. I suspect there are many, many more surprises that will appear over the next generation or two.

  And now...I must outline Civil Procedure.
• 

  jgnat

  I tend to agree that men probably do see the doctrinal issues quicker than women.

  I have a notable exception to this rule. Blondie frequently corrected her elders on matter of doctrine. That woman has a mind like a steel trap. (Velvet-lined steel trap). Heaven help the elder who dares to pontificate in front of her.

  Oh, and there's me. I married the blue collar guy who joined the Witnesses for emotional reasons. Trying to logically argue him out of the Witnesses is as effective as eating jell-o with chopsticks.
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  Curtains

  In our family the women have all woken up to the truth about the truth. The guys have not.

  and in our extended family no guys have done so - 2 more women have left.