Can the Bible be proved wrong? (page 12)

The Quiet One

I'm sorry if I overreacted, I'm just terrified of hurting anyone.. If I ever do, everybody feel free to tear my posts apart and tell me if I've said anything offensive :)

The Quiet One

Double post.. That's it, I'm going before I make a worse fool out of myself..

tec

You're not making a fool out of yourself :)

AllTimeJeff

So many people who want to believe in god feel that they must do so,

1. With a group

2. Aided by a really old book translated thousands of years ago from its close to extinct language.

3. or else god will "get em!"

I don't need a group, a book, and am not in fear of my life.

It's an interesting thing that happens to your spirituality when you let go of fear and pre-instilled ideas you have accepted but never tested. Good luck!

Mad Sweeney

Wow, this discussion has taken quite a turn while I was away, and I fear for the worst.

I disagree. It's a great thread. You have two of the most clear examples of a person of faith and a person of reason posting here. It's awesome to behold.

AGuest

Okay, disclaimer, here: looooonnnnngggg post response, dear ones (peace to you all). But the comments called for it... so, please, take a warning:

First, socrates was not a follower of the judeo-christian god. He was a polytheist, he believed in a great many gods and didn't give any great reverance to Yahweh or Adonai in particular over the pantheon of gods he believed in.

Unfortunately, this is an error, dear JonH (again, peace to you!). True, Socrates WAS polytheistic; however, he came to hear the true God sometime prior to his last years. He did at the time he gave his final address to the Senate.

I would like to see your sources saying that he was a follower specifically of the judeo-christian god, or if that's just an assertion because you like socrates.

I received this truth from my Lord, the Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA, the Chosen One of JAH, dear one; however, Plato's "Apology" might shed some light on this truth for you.

Also an appeal to authority such as saying "Socrates believed in the divine, funny that skeptics wouldn't" is erroneous. Newton believed in alchemy, saying "I can't believe any physicist would believe in chemistry" on these grounds would be absurd.

Although a skeptic, dear one, Socrates skepticism had similar results to that of Saul of Tarsus. He was still as skeptic, afterward, but of man, not God.

Fine, you are anti-religion. Just change anywhere that I say "religion" to "personal divine revelation".

Okay.

Same difference in mentality, just more emphasis on self rather than a group.

No, truly. There is still a group: the Body of Christ. There is only one leader, teacher, and Lord, however. Again, the Holy One of Israel.

Two, your discourse on rationality has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not faith is rational. Pointing to hedonistic actions, saying that people think they are rational, and then claiming they are in fact irrational in a spirit world, then claiming that more socialistic and religious practices are irrational on earth, but very rational in the spirit realm does not in anyway make believing that the voices in your head are of divine origin more rational.

Not to you, perhaps. But I did not share to it win your agreement... or approval... or understanding. At least, not at this point (as to the latter). But I wasn't trying convince anyone, including you. I shared it for the simple reason that it is the truth. Whether you hear... or refrain.

They are just assertions with no backing.

Actually, I backed it up. You are among those, however, whose position is that because YOU don't GET it.... it isn't rational... or truth. That is an error.

This was more theology speak in that it was alot of talking that made no meaningful point whatsoever, nor had any evidence for their claims, or means to falsify their conclusions, and little to do with the topic anyway.

That is your opinion... and you are certainly entitled to it; however, I disagree. Could be that I didn't go into great depth... because I have done so here SO many times... and, in that light, the information is out there (although you may have review a few posts to find it), but I think I gave you enough.

None of that has anything to do with reason or rationality as it pertains to believing things without any means of demonstrating, reasoning, or falsifying.

Okay, wait. Who said there weren't "any means of demonstrating, reasoning, or falsifying?" Those issues never came up in the discussion. The issue of rationality came up... and I responded to that. That you consider "rational" only those things that can be... ummmm... tested empirically... is you. I have learned that all things can be tested, but necessarily empirically. Again, you can only realize the physical. Okay. I can realize both the physical AND the spiritual. So what? I don't consider YOU inferior.

And furthermore, we are not a soul, we are a brain that receives stimuli from organs that sense the world around us.

Ummmm... I think you mean "we are not a SPIRIT" (although we are); what you describe IS a soul, dear one,and can be live... or dead... human... or beast. And, no, they are not the same thing, contrary to other teachings.

Take my legs and I may still perceive, but take my amygdala and see where I am at.

Ummm... behind the preposition "at", perhaps? J/K. I understand what you mean. Remove/alter it and you most probably won't be able to control your physical, mental and emotional abilities; wouldn't necessarily affect your spirit, however... unless, of course, your diminished physical, mental, or emotion deficiencies lend to it... which is VERY much the case in many humans. But it doesn't HAVE to... any more than, say, alcoholism, drug addiction, mental or other illness... or emotional issues, including non-clinical depression... has to.

Altering one's brain alters one's perceptions

Yes. Which is why over-indulgence in mind-altering substances such as alcohol, drugs, etc., isn't a good thing. Whether one believes in God or not.

there is no evidence that some outside mystical force is manipulating our brain,

EXACTLY! No one is manipulating MY brain. My brain is just fine. But the neither God nor Christ manipulate the brain... or any other part of our body. They do, however, help US to retrain our HEARTS (and I don't mean the fleshly organ the pumps blood through our veins). They also help us to see and hear beyond what our physical eyes and ears can do. But they don't manipulate anything. It is our choice.

there is ample evidence and experimentation that changing the brain, changes the person.

Well, okay. But, then, why not just change everyone's brains and get of this belief in God altogether? Or vice versa, change them so that everyone believes? And why stop there? Why not have everyone believe in the SAME God? Oh, but then that would US manipulating brains... even where people don't want it. Right? The Most Holy One wouldn't even think of such a thing, dear one. Because then... where would FREE WILL be? That is a contrivance of man. Because HIS way is always "better", isn't it?

A tumor or railroad spike to the head can completely change your attitudes, beliefs, thoughts, and mentality.

Oh, dear one, it doesn't even take all that. A personal CHOICE can change one's attitudes, beliefs, thoughts, and mentality. Heck, most of us HERE have proven THAT.

If our thoughts and perceptions were the result of a soul, electrically stimulating certain parts of the brain wouldn't radically change how we think, feel, and perceive.

I actually know a couple/few people who were so "electronically stimulated", dear one... and from what I understand it pretty much leaves them in not much more than a "vegetative" state for some time afterward. And then, you know WHAT? According to THEM... the "change" they experienced was due to their acquiescing to whatever it was others WANTED them to think, feel, and perceive... so as to not undergo any further "electronic stimulation." I mean, torture a person enough (and all torture is not physical), and you can pretty much get them to think, feel, and perceive whatever the heck you WANT. Ask any former JW on this site, particularly a "born-in". To forego the TORTURE they endured as JW children, spouses, etc., they pretty much learned to think... and then feel... and then perceive... as to BELIEVE... whatever it was they had to to "soften" the pain.

We "see" things differently, dear one. Way.

And just to cut you off at the pass, claiming that we don't understand everything about the brain doesn't some how imply that there are magic forces making us happy instead of endorphins.

LOLOLOLOL! I wasn't going there, dear one, not at all. YOU are the one making assumptions. You assume that I have absolutely NO respect for the physical body OR the physical world. You are very wrong. VERY. I just am not limited to either. You are enslaved to only that which you can perceive with your flesh... and that which is empirically set around you. I am not. Doesn't make me better than you. Doesn't make me lesser, either.

Think about telling some one you have absolute belief that jesus revealed himself to you, but there is no way to demonstrate this other than say it's true, and that he would reveal himself to anyone if they allowed it. Is this rational?

Well, YEAH... if it's the TRUTH. And it is. Virtually everyone who has put it to the test has said it has occurred for them, too. THEY know I haven't lied about it. You don't want to test it; yet, you say it isn't possible. How are you, then, different from those folks who, for example, say the world isn't round... but won't get in the dang boat and go find OUT?

Put yourself in some one elses shoes. Could you expect somebody to accept this as a rational answer without tangible evidence?

No... if they lack faith, and yes... if they have faith.

To answer this, replace "Jesus" with "Cyborg Napoleon from Mars", or better yet, "Allah" or "Vishnu".

Sorry, won't work as to Cyborg Napoleon (I don't know of anyone who follows him, and besides, he doesn't exist). Vishnu never existed, either, but I know many who ascribe to him, so...

As absolutely certain you are of your divine revelation, what would you say to some one who was equally certain about their divine revelation about "Allah"? Could you say anything?

I COULD. I would say, "I, too, am a seed of Abraham, but through Isaac, not Ishmael. Abraham loves BOTH and so there's truly no need for us to be enemies. So, if you're agreeable, let's discuss this matter: you show me how you know Allah, and I will show you how I know the the God of Abraham, Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, you call "Allah". I will show you they are the same God and how the name "Allah" came about and, if you don't believe me, I can show you how you can find these things out for yourself."

As far as someone who believed in Vishnu (of the "trinity" that includes Brahma and Shiva - the other forms came millennia after, so we'd have to go back), I would say, Did you know our beliefs have some things in common?" and go from there. "From there," meaning that modern western religion had it origins in Hinduism (i.e., it was the religion of the east/Orient, where Job was from. From that came the worship of Abram, also from the east, who left there for Canaan. From that came the Law Covenant... from which Judaism derived... and from that christianity... and from that, well, apostasy. There is more details, of course (for example, it was the "religion" OF Hindu, with its triune god and other deities, methods of worship and sacrifices, etc., that caused to Most Holy One of Israel to direct Terah and Abraham to leave the east in the first place). I digress...

Even so, I am not here to attack anyone else's god. People can worship whoever they choose; to their own master they will stand or fall. Even if their master is a cyborg. I don't even take great issue with the many so-called "christian" religions out there, at least not in depth. I do take issue with and will expose, at every opportunity, the lies and false teachings of the WTBTS... but that is because they call themselves the "truth"... when nothing could be further FROM the truth. And because they still enslave many who I love. And... and... and...

But my sharing is with the Household of God, Israel, and those who go with. If anyone else wants to give a listen... well, more power to 'em! I received free, I give free! To whomever!

Would the fact that this person has absolute faith in what Allah is telling him, mean that in some way for some reason he has rejected Jesus in his life?

Well, for such a person, yes. Because [Jesus] is the seed of Isaac, not Ishmael. Ishmaelites (modernly, Muslims) don't believe in Christ as their heir and Messiah. He is merely a prophet to them (he was that, too!). But they don't believe in his sacrifice or his blood. There is a reason for that though: the promise wasn't made to Ishmael, but to Isaac. Now, they are very WELCOME to hear my Lord as well; again, Abraham LOVED Ishmael... and so did and does God.

What would be your explanation as to why this person believes absolutely in Allah as has been revealed to him, but does not believe in Jesus as you do?

Because they don't know my Lord. I would ask them, of course, HOW "Allah" was revealed and I am willing to bet they will say, as many so-called "christians" do... through a book (the Quran)... or a "prophet" (meaning some man who doesn't truly know "Allah" any more than they do, but simply knows how to manipulate the Quran). I say this because if I asked him how "Allah" looked... they would be able to answer. Because THEY have no image of "Allah." Yet, there is indeed an image: Christ.

After all you have evidence of jesus, but it is invisible to everyone else, the evidence is "in you".

Yes, but it didn't start OUT that way. It wasn't until I began to obey what he TOLD me that my Lord and the Father came and made their abode IN me.

He has evidence of "Allah" but his evidence is invisible to everyone else, the evidence is "in him". At such an impasse, what do you do, and why the difference?

I cannot answer for anyone else, but I would simply bid him "Asalaam aleikam." Peace. The same that I would bid you... or any "christian" who said similar. Why? Because it is what my Lord has taught me to do. Besides, what difference does it make to me what he believes? What HE believes will not add one cubit to my lifespan. What I believe will.

Why should anyone believe you over him or him over you?

First, NO ONE has to believe me, dear one. I don't share what I do because I need... or even WANT anyone to BELIEVE me; I share it because, again... it's the truth. Perhaps you're fairly new here or haven't read much of what I've posted. No worries; it happens. But I have made that particular statement more than I can count. Probably more than YOU can count, actually. The truth doesn't need anyone to believe it, dear one - it simply it what it is. You don't believe what I share? More power to you! You believe? Even more power to you! Trust me, I do NOT lay awake nights going, "I my gosh, I hope they believe me!" or "Who do they think they are; they should believe ME!" Nope, not like that at ALL.

I don't necessarily go right to sleep, true, but that's because my Lord is speaking... and I'm trying to listening. Or, I speaking to him. Keeps me up for a minute. Or sometimes wakes me up... usually somewhere between 1am and 5am...

I also find it telling that, much like the society, you posit that education and intelligence are a hinderance to understanding.

Whoa. WHOA! Where in the WORLD did you get THAT?? I posit no such thing! Not at ALL. I am a HUGE advocate AND intelligence. However, when education and intelligence causes others to haughtily look down on others... without even knowing WHAT they believe... I get a little "testy", yes. I have an education... and I LOVE intelligence; however, I don't always agree with some as to what IS "intelligence." My OWN intelligence doesn't allow it.

If only we were more like children, that are prone to believing in santa, the easter bunny, monsters under the bed, and imaginary friends then we would believe the voices in our head are coming from spirit dimensions.

You misunderstand. Children don't have a CLUE that Santa, et al., exist... until adults tell them (and make it all so "fun" so that they WANT to believe in these things). Children DO, however, know that there is "someone" who speaks to them. It was up to the adults to tell them WHO... but, heck, the ADULTS don't know! Why? Because "society" shuns such things ("Hush, or people'll think you're crazy! You have no "imaginary friend" and if you keep acting like you, no one'll wanna play with you. So, cut it out!"... or words to that effect).

Claiming that ignorance, or willed ignorance is a helpful requisite to believing something is not something to be proud of.

What willed ignorance?? It is the result of adults TEACHING children ignorance that most have no idea that they CAN hear!

The society called this "humilty" or rather the abject acceptance of things without question or evidence.

That's not what I'm referring to, at all. Again, you don't know me so you're making all sorts of assumptions and jumping to all kinds of conclusions. Again, no worries - I've made the same mistake with others on occasion. Not to the extent you are, but still...

This goes back to what I said before that this view of divine revelation is incredibly disrespectful of anyone that does not hold the same view.

So, what you're saying is that because others don't hold the same view, I must deny MY truth? Where, I ask you... is the intelligence in THAT? This is a public Internet forum... where pretty much everyone is an adult. As such, everyone pretty much has free will. Free will allows anyone who wishes not only to CHOOSE what they want to BELIEVE... but what they want to READ. I did not say to you, "Read my comments, JonH, AND believe them." You CHOSE to read them... and CHOOSE to disagree with them. Okay, no problem.

But I think that it was YOU who was disrespectful in that you CHOSE to read my comments, CHOSE to disagree with them, CHOSE to take issue with what I believe... and then try to tell ME that I pretty much have NO right TO make such comments OR believe as I do. Seriously? Where, again, is the "intelligence" in THAT?

Or are you the kind of person that will, say, take a journey to Tibet and then when you get there, tell those people that, "Hey, look, you folks have NO right to have your temples and monks and Buddahs, even though, yeah, I CHOSE to come where YOU are?" Sounds a lot like a Conquest, to me...

It implies that it's not something that is a matter of going to the drawing board, and if you saw A, reasoned on B, and came to conclusion C then you would get it. It's that for some reason you refuse to get it, you don't want to get it, and by definition that makes you wicked.

No... and I mean, no. If YOU feel "wicked" because YOU don't get it, then that's on YOU. Something YOU are choosing. I never SAID it... nor implied it. It makes you ignorant, not stupid... or wicked. And ignorant only as to such matters; not as to things of this world.

What YOU so... ummmmm... conveniently OVERLOOK, though... as those like you often tend to do, is YOUR implication that if people don't "see" what YOU do... as YOU do... well, they're not just ignorant, but stupid. And, in some instances (and in some instance you're right, but not all)... fake and falsely motivated.

C'mon, dear Jon... let's keep it real. Hypocrisy is WAY uglier on non-believers... than so-called believers. At least the latter can rightfully claim that they were blind or misled. Non-believers never allow that concession. Never. Ever.

The guy that accepts the revelation of "Allah" in his life isn't ignorant (as we are all ignorant), he's stubborn, haughty and prideful for not accepting jesus.

That is the belief of some; it is not mine.

It has to make the assumption that one never earnestly sought truth, or else he would've already found jesus.

Depends on what you mean by "the truth." I would never say that if they're seeking "answers" they weren't earnest. I am SURE they were; unfortunately, there's a whole lot of folks out there with "answers." Not necessarily the RIGHT "answers"... or even TRUTHFUL "answers"... but answers, nonetheless.

If, however, if they were truly seeking the TRUTH, yes, they would find/have found Christ. Because he IS the Truth. And no, not "Jesus" (but that's for another thread). But one must discern the difference... because there IS a difference. BIG difference.

Do you honestly think that every atheist, agnostic, and buddhist here didn't ever earnestly search for truth?

For truth, no, I don't think that. For THE Truth... yes, I honestly think that. Because one doesn't usually search for something... or someone... one doesn't know exists... because either others have told them it/he doesn't exist... or accurately how to find it/him.

They never read the bible looking for answers?

Oh, I think a whole LOT of people read the Bible looking for answers. I used to! But the Truth is not IN the Bible, dear one. Thus, they search... but search... in vain. Yes?

You have to either believe that jesus is hiding from us, or that we absolutely refuse to accept him in our life due to our own wicked natures?

Oh, no. Those are the FALSE teachings that have been so STRONGLY ENTRENCHED. He id neither hiding... and it not our wicked nature that refuses to accept him. It's our ignorance as to HOW we accept him... how we ALLOW him IN... or even that either can be done.

Or is there a valid reason for not hearing the voice of Jesus in your head, or your spirit head, or whatever?

For NOT hearing (and it isn't in my head - another thread)? Well, I guess there could be, dear one. I truly don't believe so, haven't found one... and haven't heard that there is from my Lord, though. But... I will certainly let you know if I come across one. In the meantime, please... don't hold your breath (and I really mean that in the kindest way possible!)

Again, I bid you peace!

A slave of Christ,

SA

AGuest

Dear, dear QO... the greatest of love and peace to you! Absolutely NO worries, none at all, on MY part! I did not take offense at ANYTHING dear JonH stated. I "get" where he's coming from - believe me, IF my Lord had never spoken to me, I would most probably have gone atheist myself. But... HE DID... and I simply cannot deny it. Because that would be LIE. And I spent enough of my life lying just order to please others. Can't do it, now. To do so would be to deny my very existence. Some people can live "double lives" for whatever reasons; I am simply not cut from that cloth... even to my own detriment sometimes. I MUST live in truth... and tell the truth... when it comes to God and Christ. It is the LEAST I can do for all the years I lied about them to others (even if I didn't know it then. I know it NOW).

So, if what I share gets to some, I don't know what to say other than I am NOT going to lie... and say these things come from me... when they absolutely don't... or that my Lord doesn't speak to me... when he absolutely does. It doesn't matter whether others BELIEVE me. It's about MY salvation, not theirs. And lying on, about, as to, or to the Holy Spirit, which my Lord is, is blasphemy. Ain't gonna do it, sorry.

As for the "tone" of the thread, I don't think dear JonH meant or has taken any offense; I truly hope not, as none is intended, none at all. I didn't, as to both. I do tend to be forthright which... ummmmm... some of the more sensitive or perhaps "tender" might misconstrue as... ummmm... well, I'm not sure. I am being assertive and, yes, I am confident. But neither comes from me; they are gifts my Lord has given me to help ME maintain MY integrity as to these things.

Regarding my use of the word "hypocrite," I sometimes marvel that the word has the connotation it does here. Christ used it. Paul even called Peter one. A hypocrite is merely one who wants others to do what they themselves cannot do... or demands from others what they cannot give. Or judges others for the same things they are doing. Here, many want others to "keep an open mind" or consider that they may be wrong - yet, their minds are closed and they will not consider, for one second, that THEY might be wrong. In their opinions, they are not. Yet, their "knowledge" is limited to one world... when there is more than one. That they haven't accessed the other, yet, is not the fault of one who has.

But I've been here quite a while and I have learned how to... ummmm... play "nice" in the sandbox... realizing that even when some kids "throw sand" they're not trying to start a fight, but maybe put a little in another's pail. Sometimes, though, the wind is blowing and someone gets sand in their eyes. Not intentional - no one meant to blind anyone. Just kids playing. It doesn't always end up with someone crying, though, and I don't think there's any danger of that, here.

So, please... calm your heart; it's all good!

Again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

just n from bethel

Sorry aguest - I no longer read posts that take longer than Dirk takes to nail a fade away in under 24 seconds.

I know you love your own voice - the one you claim is someone else's. Get help - like soon.

In the meantime: For tec who said:

"But we are the ones responsible for teaching 'our' people what to believe, think, do... and what is possible, or impossible... so isn't that on us? "

huh???????? You're slowly becoming as batsh$t crazy as aguest - congrats!

All I can say is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAlVKgl_zCQ

Oh and PS - only reason I'm commenting at all is JonathonH totally pwned the personal revelationists - even when they tried to reply afterwards - he still pwned their comments. way to go - great post!

tec

"But we are the ones responsible for teaching 'our' people what to believe, think, do... and what is possible, or impossible... so isn't that on us? "

huh????????

Well, JIFB, if you were to teach your son that he could never live in peace... or pilot a plane, or become president (or another country's equivalent to that), or find a loyal wife, or be faithful to a wife when he got one... and he followed your teaching because that is all he knew, then would it not be on you if he never knew that he could do those things?

It was a blind leading the blind sort of point that I was making. Hopefully, that clears it up.

Peace,

Tammy

just n from bethel

TEC ----- again - what do you mean 'you people' or in your words "our people"?

I'm guessing you're talking about those born of western judeo christian dissent that read crazy ladies' bs about how the big J son of the other big J who was raised as the now dead-then-alive jew messiah (but only seen and heard by those who can hear dog whistles)

For eveyody else - sucks to be you! cuz you don't get it. I know, I know - you had the similars vision with mohammed or your hindu gods and spirits - but, guess what, they're wrong! they're the 'wrong people' - they're not part of 'our people' - why??? born wrong time and wrong place and never went to the right ex-religion website.

How it should've worked: born or converted (or almost converted) to JWs - then got pissed off about something obviously wrong with JWs - then came here - found some lengthy crazy lady's posts about the voices in her head with the 'correct' name of two Jewish spirit dudes - (specifically given to and verified by the lost black jews - see jwn poster marie p or somethin like that) - then recognized your calling and heard some kind of similar auditory hallucinations as explained only by one single poster here on JWN (but not the kind the can be verified as the same so as to corroborate the authentecity for observers) - then claimed your personal acceptance of being chosen by the creator and his son with wierd names that even the Jews don't acknoweldge.

Otherwise - you're not part of "our people" - but hey - even Downey Jr got called ou for trying to be part of 'you people' when he clearly was not.

Can the Bible be proved wrong?

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