(clearly not so) Mad Sweeney: Thank you, your words are more relevant to me than you'll ever know... Blondie, pm for you.
Can the Bible be proved wrong?
by The Quiet One 158 Replies latest watchtower bible
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tec
TEC ----- again - what do you mean 'you people' or in your words "our people"?
I'm guessing you're talking about those born of western judeo christian dissent that read crazy ladies' bs about how the big J son of the other big J who was raised as the now dead-then-alive jew messiah (but only seen and heard by those who can hear dog whistles)
No, not even close. You have guessed very wrong here. When I speak about 'our' or 'your' people, I am speaking about humanity as a whole. If you can misunderstand that, then you might consider asking yourself what else have you misunderstood in your... zeal? The rest of your post, to me, has as much misunderstanding and assumption as this first one.
Surely, you understand blind leading the blind? Or that we (humanity - including western civilization) pass on our limitations and/or our mistakes to our children, and they to their children, etc, etc? Sometimes our children rise above them (such as Ghandi), and sometimes they remain in them.
by the creator and his son with wierd names that even the Jews don't acknoweldge.
Jaheshua. (pronounced with a Y) Yehoshua. Yeshua. Y'shua.
You realize, they're not all that far off in sound and pronouncement?
Anyway what you said doesn't even make sense, especially if you're trying to reach me personally as nothing about my family situation matches your description.
I wasn't. I was just trying to simplify what I had said earlier on a individual level. I have no idea if you have a son or a child or a wife or whatever. I do, though,... so how about we change the 'your' to 'my', if that helps to not "get your back up?"
It would be helpful if you would describe to me what does not make sense about it, rather than stating that it does not, perhaps based on another misunderstanding.
Peace,
Tammy
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simon17
NO matter what you try to "Prove" wrong, one could say "No that was symbolic," "No, day doesn't really mean day, it means xxxxx", "Evidently this is referring to...", "That has an invisible fulfillment".
Never and in no way can you pin down the Bible as being wrong to a believer. You might as well go out and prove to a Republican that Democratic policy is "right" or vice-versa.
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PSacramento
To go back tot he original question:
Can the bible be proven to be wrong?
The depends.
Cna parts be proven to be wrong? Well...that parts that claim something factual and we have proof that this "fact" was not so, then yes, they would be wrong and thar part of the bible is proven wrong.
But I think what we really mean is, if soem parts of the bible are shown to be wrong, does it mean that the WHOLE of the bible is wrong?
The answer to that would depend on IF you believe the bible to be inerrant and to be the actual written Word of God, done under God's very hand, through the hands of the writers AND the scribes AND the translators.
A good place to start would be this book here:
God's Word in Human Words: An Evangelical Appropriation of Critical Biblical Scholarship [Paperback]
Kenton L. Sparks (Author) Another thing is IF a person truly wants to study the bible I would suggest some course AND some reading from the likes of NT Wright, Bruce Metzger and such. I mean, there are really A LOT of books out there that deal with this subject.
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trevor
It seems that the fact that the Bible is known as Holy Bible has been over-looked. Christianity has been a Bible based religion for many hundreds of years, accepting the Holy Bible as God’s written authority. This is why it is still used to swear people into court. Its contradictory manner and content has put many people off adopting Christianity.
If we start picking the pieces that suit our particular persuasion and dismissing the inconvenient bits, it ceases to be Holy. It becomes just a biblia or collection of books. Bible also means authoritative book which other religions also have. If The Holy Bible is just a collection of men’s opinions and not the Holy writings of a god, we have to ask if it even qualifies to be called an authoritative book?
Personaly, I have no problem with accepting the Bible as just a collection of man made attempts to understand the Christian god. But then I do not claim to belong to a Bible based religion that is now working its way back to its roots and trying to manage without a Holy Bible.
If the way forward for Christianity is for each member to follow their own internalised thoughts or audible voice without recourse to the Holy Bible, there are questions that must be asked:
Why has the Christian god or Jesus allowed so many people to put faith in the teachings of the Holy Bible and often die terrible deaths for their faith?
Why were these sincere people not given the benefit of direct conversation with Jesus, that some on this board claim to have, and informed that the Bible is not Holy?
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startingover
That definitely needed to be said Trevor. Thanks for expressing it so well. It's tough to have a discussion with those who have invisible goalposts.
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PSacramento
It seems that the fact that the Bible is known as Holy Bible has been over-looked. Christianity has been a Bible based religion for many hundreds of years, accepting the Holy Bible as God’s written authority. This is why it is still used to swear people into court. Its contradictory manner and content has put many people off adopting Christianity.
If we start picking the pieces that suit our particular persuasion and dismissing the inconvenient bits, it ceases to be Holy. It becomes just a biblia or collection of books. Bible also means authoritative book which other religions also have. If The Holy Bible is just a collection of men’s opinions and not the Holy writings of a god, we have to ask if it even qualifies to be called an authoritative book?
Personaly, I have no problem with accepting the Bible as just a collection of man made attempts to understand the Christian god. But then I do not claim to belong to a Bible based religion that is now working its way back to its roots and trying to manage without a Holy Bible.
If the way forward for Christianity is for each member to follow their own internalised thoughts or audible voice without recourse to the Holy Bible, there are questions that must be asked:
Why has the Christian god or Jesus allowed so many people to put faith in the teachings of the Holy Bible and often die terrible deaths for their faith?
Why were these sincere people not given the benefit of direct conversation with Jesus, that some on this board claim to have, and informed that the Bible is not Holy?
Would one claim that holiness of the bible ABOVE the holiness of a saint? I mean, lets take Peter for example.
St Peter was holy and was most certainly WITH error but I venture to say that IF he was alive today ( and certaibly when he was laive then) HIS view would have been taken OVER the view of anything written at the time.
Taking something as HOLY doesn't put it above ANYTHING else that is take as Holy.
That said, you make a valid point.
Yet I would argue that, those that have suffered and even dies for God have done that for God and NOT some book, even the Holy Bible.
Yes, for many the bible REPRESENTS the word of God and even for some it IS The WORD of God, yet no one die sor sufferes for the book but what it repesents, not inerrance but GOD.
As I have said before, and we can go through history and see this, the bible is but ONE way God has revealed Himself to Us.
Lets also not forget that the great apologists of the past, the likes of Augustine, Aquinas, Luther and so many others, including those of TODAY, while all have the bible in a most special of places in their hearts, it IS and WAS THEIR words that defended the Faith and NOT JUST the words of the bible.
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trevor
Thanks for trying to answer my questions honestly as you always do PSacramento. Unfortunately the main question still remains unanswered.
Why were these sincere people not given the benefit of direct conversation with Jesus, that some on this board claim to have, and informed that the Bible is not Holy?
Perhaps those that claim to hear from god can ask and reply. Millions of people are waiting for the answer. Meanwhile they look to the Holy Bible for answers.
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tec
Why were these sincere people not given the benefit of direct conversation with Jesus, that some on this board claim to have,
I'm not going to try and answer this part, because I don't know. I can give you all sorts of possible things that I THINK, but they would hold no more authority than anyone else's thoughts. I have stated my thoughts before, and of course I will again if you don't know them and would like to know my reasons.
But I would like to share what I believe on this:
and informed that the Bible is not Holy?
People tend to listen to whatever voice tells them what they want to hear. Be it their own or someone else's or a group of someone else as well.
People are the ones who decided the bible was inerrant and holy. Christ did not say anything about the bible, because of course the bible was not around when He walked the earth. (He did refer to scripture, yes... but he also said 'woe to you scribes, and woe to you teachers of the law', and "it is written, BUT I tell you now...") The bible as we know it does not say this about itself. People said so, and they tend to say a lot of things that aren't true - about life, about God, about Christ, etc.
God would be pretty busy if he had to counter every single thing people said that was false. And yet He did just that, through His Son. Which is why we are to look to Christ to know God, and what God wants from us.
Christ never said to burn someone at the stake, or kill in His name. In fact, just the opposite. Forgive, turn the other cheek, etc, etc. But people have killed, tortured, gone to war, burned people at the stake, etc, etc... and all in God's name. These are lies. Should God have told them not to do them? As I said, He did. Through His Son. They didn't even need to listen to the spirit to know it, they could have opened up their bibles and read the passages that speak of what I listed.
Yet people ignore what Christ said... (they even ignore the bible they claim to be inerrant)...and then some still ask why He doesn't tell people not to do these things.
Again, He did.
Peace Trevor,
Tammy
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jgnat
Constant inquiry and living with a little uncertainty can become the new habit, replacing the need to reinforce present "truth".
I am comfortable with a little uncertainty, and confident that my method of inquiry will not steer me wrong. I call ice solid and jello not.