Can the Bible be proved wrong?

by The Quiet One 158 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Heaven
    Heaven

    Heaven: Sorry to hear that about your parents. But the Bible makes clear that the man is only the head of the woman in the same way that Jesus is head of his followers, and he gave up his life for them.. It was never meant to be about domination.

    I have to disagree with you there The Quiet One, for the use of the word 'subjection' does, indeed, mean domination (see definition below). Here are 2 scriptures from the KJV using that word. If domination was not the intent, then these scriptures should be rewritten using a different word or thrown out altogether.

    The definition of the word subjection:

    The act or process of subjecting or the state of being subjected

    Subject - adj.: Being in a position or in circumstances that place one under the power or authority of another or others.

    Subject - n.: One who is under the rule of another or others, especially one who owes allegiance to a government or ruler.

    Synonyms: subjugation, repression, oppression, enslavement, slavery, captivity, bondage, peonage, confinement, conquering, conquest, capture, gaining control, seizure.

    1. 1 Peter 3:1
      Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;
    2. 1 Peter 3:5
      For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
  • the-illuminator81
    the-illuminator81

    Let's see..

    - Jehovah's wrath lasts forever.. or not..

    - God tests people.. or he doesn't..

    - You can be saved by faith alone.. uhmm no scrap that, by works alone..

    - You can't see God's face and live, and no man has seen him.. except of course for Moses, Abram, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and 70 elders

    - I never told you guys to make me burnt offerings when you moved out of egypt.. oh wait, i did, whoops

    - I created the animals first.. no wait men!

    - Pauls companions only heard the voice, not the light.. i mean they only saw the light, they didnt hear the voice

    - Only Jesus went to heaven, nobody elese.. except for Elia of course, whoops, forgot about him

    - I am Jehovah who punishes until the 4th generation. Even though according to my heavenly righteous standards, a child cannot be punished for the crime of its father

    - Jehovah never tires.. except when he's annoyed by the israelites or when they party too much

    - Jesus was seen resurrected for the first time by: 1 woman, 2 women, 3 women, more than 5 women?

    - What were Jesus last words?

    Conclusion: The bible is very unreliable

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    A couple/few things, if I may, dear QO (and, again, peace to you!):

    wonder if you still miss my point. All of these things, including Moses, you are again quoting from the Bible to prove the Bible..

    Not exactly. The question was how can one know of Christ WITHOUT the Bible and the answer was another question: how did Moses know of Christ... when there wasn't a Bible? My point being, he knew the One that the Bible SPEAKS of but not through/from the Bible. And that is true for some today. The Bible talks about "the LORD," and "Jehovah/Yahweh", and "Jesus." These are not the Ones I know... because I did not come to know of them through or because of the Bible. It was because of the BIBLE... and those to misinterpret it because they DON'T know... that I did NOT know God (JAH of Armies) and Christ. So... I asked to know. And all that I have learned since then, although some of which IS included/explained in the Bible, did not COME from the Bible.

    The Bible does not corroborate for ME whether what I share here is true, dear one (although I realize that it does for those lacking faith); rather, as my Lord said, HE corroborates whether what is in the BIBLE is true. Man has it backward - they are looking in and to a book to justify God and Christ... rather than looking to God through Christ... to justify what's in the book. The latter is faith; the former is a LACK of faith.

    What you may fail to understand is that ALL my life until a few weeks ago when I fully 'woke up', I... believed that 'the Truth' was the answer to everything and I believed everything I was told (without really proving it to myself).

    We absolutely do understand that (and I think I can speak for dear tec (peace to you!) here). What you and many others don't understand, especially those "born-in"... is that what is occurring with you NOW... is EXACTLY their purpose for existing. They are the ONLY ones who could get you to turn COMPLETELY away from God. And they DO it... by perpetrating the Truth. Claiming to be HIM... or his representative. But that is a LIE; they are imposters, always were. Their PURPOSE is to lead you down a path to total trust in THEM, so that either (1) you follow THEM away from Christ (which is where they're taking folks by their uber-pushing of "Jehovah" and the "Society", rather than teaching you to KISS the Son!)... or (2) you leave them... AND God... altogether. Either way... your TRUE faith is "shipwrecked."

    They in NO way belong to, "work" for, or serve the Most Holy One of Israel, dear one. They serve the one who "keeps transforming HIMSELF into an angel of light." Unfortunately, unlike ANY other "christian" religion, their false teachings are SO insidious, they become the last stop. People will leave Mormonism, Catholicism, Protestanism, Unitarianism, you name it... and go "into" that harlotous city. People who come OUT of her, however, rarely go "anywhere" else. Rarely. Why? Because one of her ploys, one of the "pillars" of HER false teachings... is that she IS the last stop. THAT is the thing that you believe in... that you shouldn't. Because by means of IT, she has a hold on you still!

    She is NOT the last stop. But what folks don't SEE is that the last stop is NOT a where... it's a WHOM. Many may have sayings of everlasting life, including the WTBTS. Only ONE, however, can actually GIVE such life. They are thieves, dear one, and plunderers... and your shaken faith shows that.

    And so, while previously you were blind as to the reality of spiritual things, you are now actually on the brink of REFUSING to see. All because that harlot lied and misled you. But it doesn't have to be that way, truly.

    So I feel as though believing in anything or anyone could just lead to me being duped/controlled again. My faith in people and Jesus has fallen apart, how can I trust in any potentially man-made concept again?

    This is human... and understandable. It is virtually the same as with falling head over heels (or even slowly, but) in love, loving blindly as a result, then being hurt by the one you gave your heart to. BUT... should you stop seeking love altogether? Never allow your heart to become vulnerable again? What if you do? What if the very one "meant for you" was right next door, but because this last cad broke your heart you will NEVER give her/him a chance? Who stands to lose in that case? The girl/boy next door who you never allow yourself to love? Or you? True, you may never have your heart broken again...

    If you ask everyone on this board, however, who HAS had their heart broken whether it IS possible to find "true love"... the majority will tell you, yes, it absolutely IS possible... and it is all they ever imagined... and more. BUT... they had to take down the wall and ALLOW themselves to trust... just one more time. True, many have chosen to bypass that path, just "do without"... but I would wager that they envy those who didn't... and found love... or rather, was found BY love... more than they are envied by such ones.

    Being hurt by fellow humans is THE worse pain we can experience, dear one. There is no physical pain to equate with the pain that comes with feeling betrayed. Even a terminal cancer patient would tell you that they prefer their pain... to a broken heart. And most of you have had your hearts broken... by a harlot. Even though that's what harlots tend to do: lie, mislead, cheat, and betray. And for it to have come from one you loved SO much, one you put ALL of your trust in... there are no words to describe.

    BUT... neither God nor Christ led you to that harlot. Either you listened to her voice and were lured to her (as I was)... or you were led by those "over" you while you were too young to decide for yourself. Because THEY were lured or so led.

    NOW, you have a CHOICE. Sadly, some choose not to love any longer so as to not risk being "hurt" again. And perhaps they will never feel such hurt again. But they will never feel true love, either. Yes, they may feel love (as from a spouse, children, friends, etc.)... but I say to you, truly, it is NOT the same as that from God and Christ. Man's love, even of loved ones... is limited. It is not always perfect. It can be sufficient, yes, of course, so I am not putting it down. But... it is not perfect. There is only one way to experience perfect love... and only THROUGH One. I have a husband that I love, dearly. DEARLY. He is my best friend, followed only by my children. Who are, IMHO, "perfect" as far as this world goes. Not a problem out of either of them, ever. They are respectfuly, kind, very much loved by others, honorable, decent, and "successful." As is my husband. I can tell ALL them anything; they can tell me anything. And we do so. We are very close. I also have two puppies who are my "world" - they are literally "toddlers" who act as if their very existence depends upon me. One is so attached, he has separation anxiety so that he "cusses" me out whenever I leave him for a few minutes.

    With all of that said, however, even their love doesn't compare with that I receive from Christ, and as a result from God THROUGH Christ. Not even close. Which is why I share what I do here. I LOVE them... beyond what words describe... and the physical body can ever experience. Because THEY and THEIR love... IS perfect. In every way. If one can only "see" perfect love... one would see Christ... and through him see God. Truly. I didn't know it could be done. No one ever told me that, explained that to me, gave me reason to even dream of it. But it is true.

    And I truly feel for those who are missing out on such love... whether because they are following false christs and/or false prophets... or because they have decided, based on their "observations" of the PHYSICAL world... that such a thing... such PERSONS... do not exist. I cannot tell you how sorry I feel for them. Which is the other reason I come here and share: because THEY love such ones... and are calling to such ones... and so I love such ones... and allow myself to be used to present that call... imperfect, unclean sinner that I am (and if anyone wishes to dispute my self-perception I can only say (1) you don't really know me, but I do; and (2) that doesn't mean I'm not loved - I am, in SPITE of such things, and I well know it).

    I feel lost...

    That's because you ARE, dear one! One who knows WHO he is, WHERE he is, and where he is going... is not lost. You feel lost because (1) you don't know WHO you are... Israel... because no one has TOLD you... yet... or (2) WHERE you are ("in the wilderness", having LEFT slavery in "Egypt" but not yet reached the "promised land" and so "wandering"... thirsty and maybe soon to be even missing leeks and cucumbers)... or (3) where you are going (the PROMISED "land"... NEW Jerusalem).

    There is One who can get you on the right "road", though... who can not only tell you who you are, where you are, and where you're going... but literally lead you there. By the hand. All YOU need do is ask him... and then LET him... by LISTENING to him and obeying where HE tells you to place your steps. It really is that simple.

    I hope this helps, dear QO... and even if you choose NOT to turn back, I do not judge you, nor does my Lord. He simply doesn't work that way, contrary to the many lies that have told about him.

    Again, I bid you peace!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • The Quiet One
    The Quiet One

    Aguest: Thank you for your sincere and warm response. You don't really experience anybody talking to you like that in 'the truth'. I remember one time when I was going through hell for various reasons and, on a sheperding visit, an elder said a couple of obligatory nice things based on the voluntary work I'd been doing (and I should hope so, I really struggled to keep up with it all), and then pointed out I should have been at an assembly as we're 'commanded by Jesus and Jehovah', which was months before and he hadn't so much as asked after me in months! Sorry, I just had to let that out... I'll think on what you've said, I understand now that you don't need physical evidence to believe in Jesus, faith is basically anti-rational as it is based on things "not yet beheld". Heaven: Sorry about that, I think that reflex response was a product of years of jw brainwashing. Kind of scary, really.. Anyway, I've done a bit of studying and I think that I know where you're coming from. Here's an example right from the beginning of the Bible in Genesis 3:16- "To the woman he said: I shall greatly increase the pain of your pregnancy; in birth pangs you will bring forth children, and yourcraving will be for your husband, and he will dominate you." And here's another scripture along the same lines- "Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says." (1 Corinthians 14:34) The Bible has been used as a tool to control women in some religions in the past, so it's no wonder you feel that way, my last comment was dismissive and thoughtless..

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    You are quite welcome, dear QO (again, peace to you!)... and please let me take this moment to APOLOGIZE to you... and everyone else who deserves it... for what these imposters have done... "in the name of God." Again, they are NOT representatives of either God OR Christ, but false "christs" (i.e., false anointed)... and so, on behalf of the TRUE anointed, the Body of Christ, New Jerusalem, I apologize for these wicked thieves!

    faith is basically anti-rational as it is based on things "not yet beheld".

    That is not quite accurate, dear one, and as you may have noticed, I am a bit pendantic when it comes to things of this nature (i.e., related to God, Christ, faith, etc.). Faith... is the ASSURED expectation of the thing hoped for... the EVIDENT demonstration of reality... though NOT beheld." The word "yet" denotes that one believes in something that will occur in the FUTURE... and yes, that requires faith. However, faith also includes (and actually is BASED on) belief in something that is occurring NOW... even though one does not "behold" it (see it with one's physical eyes/senses).

    For example, that Christ speaks. Faith does not just say he will return and speak to us in the future; it says he speaks... and so we can HEAR him... NOW. Just not with our [physical] ears. It does not just say that one day we will see God, but that we can see Him NOW... through Christ... just not with our physical eyes, but with the eyes of our SPIRIT. Because HE is a spirit.

    I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

  • The Quiet One
    The Quiet One

    Aguest: You have nothing to apologise for.. Just out of interest, do you believe that the Watchtower Society represents the Antichrist? Thanks for all the posts, I can tell you're a genuine Christian :)

  • tec
    tec

    I could not possibly add anything to what Shelby shared, other than my support in the truth of it. Especially about being called "out of the harlot". I spent some time searching for another place (denomination) to go once I stopped my study. But she had tainted all of those places, making them something to fear. I got so frustrated... even though my faith in Christ and God never faltered (but I had faith in them before I started studying with jws as well)... and I finally, on day, just surrendered to God. I asked Him to guide me wherever he wanted me to be.

    Took me just a little while longer to realize that it was not a where, but a whom. Even though that (He) is to whom I was led. Christ is the Truth. I simply have no need or desire to go back into another 'denomination' or 'church' or 'harlot'. Christ is who I choose to follow, and no other.

    Peace to you,

    Tammy

  • JonathanH
    JonathanH

    The bible, inerrant or not inerrant? I think the assumption of a flawed bible is actually a more offensive approach to christianity than it's opposite (this coming from an atheist).

    To claim the bible is the inspired and flawless word of god is at it's heart a scientific notion, or at least one that can be approached scientifically. For it is a specific claim, and one that can be tested and reasoned upon. Those that think this believe that there is ample evidence be it historic, geologic, biologic ect, to back up this claim, they see it as a matter of just needing to show those that disbelieve the evidence and reason on it. It may be dumb as hell, and a fool's errand to demonstrate the truth and value of the bible, but at least they are trying.

    Then there is the view espoused above by a few that it isn't the bible that is the foundation of their belief and subsequent salvation, but rather some intangible, unexplainable, revelation of knowledge and insight that is only tangentially related to the bible. In this view the bible can be as wrong as wrong can be, because it's not the important thing. This revealed insight and relationship with Jesus is the important thing. To contrast this with the previous view, this means that all the muslims, atheists, buddhists, hindus ect that do not believe in christ are not lacking in reason, or evidence, but rather they as people are in some way defective or more wicked because jesus isn't in their lives. This revealed knowledge and relationship they must have rejected in their wickedness. Why would jesus reveal himself to one person but refuse to under any circumstances reveal himself to another person? Why does the Hindu never feel the presence of christ in his life? Why does the skeptical atheist calling out for a messiah to reveal himself never hear back from one? If Jesus wanted to have this relationship with people, then it must be the person's fault for not having that relationship. There is something fundementally wrong with that individual, be it their hautiness, their pride, their stubborness, their idolatry, something. Otherwise Jesus would be in their lives. In this view one's beliefs have nothing to do with their geography, culture, philosophy, education, but rather whether or not they are righteous enough to have christ in their lives. This smacks of the witness view point of demonizing anyone who disagrees with them. To not accept their beliefs is a result of a defect in the individual.

    To those that put importance on the bible being without flaw, there is some kind of discussion to be had. Trying to disprove that life evolves and prove the earth is young, or that genocide is a good thing sometimes may be a ridiculous discussion to be had, but there is an actual discussion to be had. But with the second kind, there simply is nothing to discuss. The bible thumper can point to william lane craig, or flood "science", but the ones that rely on revelation have nothing to offer some one as reason to believe other than saying "Jesus is really great, he changed my life, and I can feel him in my heart. Why don't you feel him in your heart? Why won't you let Jesus in?" Which is a more offensive, and radically more frustrating conversation to have. At that point the individual has ceased any meaningful communication with the other party.

  • JonathanH
    JonathanH

    I also see a few people who seem to not understand the notion of "being able to prove something wrong". This doesn't mean "Has it been proven wrong" This means "can something be falsified", or rather "is there any means by which something could hypothetically be proven wrong. Is there a method by which this could be demonstrated to be wrong" If the answer is "no" then it isn't a sound belief. You want to be able to hypothetically prove something is wrong.

    You need to ask yourself "What would it take to convince me that the bible is not the word of god, and does not reveal any information about anything divine, but is actually just a man made collection of myths and stories as I view the Koran or Greek Mythology" If your answer to that question is "nothing, I would accept nothing as evidence of this." then your views have left the realm of reason or rationality, and have entered the realm of wishful thinking and imagination, because this means your views aren't BASED ON ANYTHING because there is nothing to be removed that would cause the belief to crumble.

    Any good belief will have a means of demonstrating whether the belief is true or false. Otherwise it isn't belief so much as it is fancy.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    do you believe that the Watchtower Society represents the Antichrist?

    Greetings, again, dear QO, and again, peace to you! Based on what I learned from my Lord, there is no "anti-christ." There are anti-christS (plural), however, meaning those who are "against" the anointing. As John related, there were many in his day, those who went out from among them. And such exist today.

    The false teaching of the "anti-christ" comes from the misleading perception of some that this is the same as the "man of lawlessness" - it is not. A "christ" is an anointed/chosen... and an anti-christ is one who works AGAINST such anointing/choosing. This false teaching arises as a result of someone making the FIRST Greek word for "anti-christ" SINGULAR... although it is the SAME word in the plural form. Who decided THAT? But if one read what John is purported to have wrote, one will see that a singular use is ridiculous. Because he states that many HAD ALREADY COME (and revealed themselves). So, in the future only ONE was coming? No, he was saying that MANY were coming, indeed, MANY were already present! And he said how one could tell them:

    1. They would deny that [Jesus] is the Christ;

    2. They would deny the Father and the Son (notice, no "Holy Spirit" mentioned here!); and

    3. They would deny that Christ came in the flesh.

    I don't think the WTBTS... or its members... fall into this category. Rather, they are worse, actually. John does not condemn such "anti-christs" - he just identifies them and warns the "christians" of them. Why? Because they are deceivers and he said he didn't want them (the "little children") to be deceived.

    As for the WTBTS fitting this description, my understanding is that no one in the WTBTS of any recent years is anointed/chosen. No one. Some heard/hear the CALL, yes, but so long as they keep touching the "unclean" thing (the harlot that the WTBTS is, a "daughter" of Babylon the Great, the MOTHER of the harlots), they cannot be taken in as sons and daughters. They must at least leave HER, quit touching HER. In the meantime, however, because they DO believe the items listed above, they are not "anti-christs" - they are, however, "false christs"... even spiritual "adulteresses."

    Because by claiming to be anointed, they are claiming to belong to Christ, as his bride... and he their husbandly owner. Yet, they follow another "leader"... the WTBTS and its GB... and so the "law" of another "man." Which a "woman"... bride... is NOT to do while HER husband is alive, lest she committ adultery. May they one day hear... and get the SENSE of that!

    As for the "man of lawlessness"... I will save that for another post, if that's okay.

    I hope this helps and, again, I bid you peace!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SA

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