Can the Bible be proved wrong?

by The Quiet One 158 Replies latest watchtower bible

tec

I find it interesting that so many people who have never been told that the bible is inerrant or infallible, still manage to have faith in God and Christ. Imo, it is mainly those who are taught to base their faith on the bible as inerrant and infallible, putting that book first and foremost, who are the ones to have trouble believing once it is shown to them that the bible is not what they thought it was.
Personally, I think that means your faith was in the wrong thing to begin with. Not Christ, first and foremost.
I guess I just find that telling, is all. Just food for thought.
Peace,
Tammy
The Quiet One

Heaven: Sorry to hear that about your parents. But the Bible makes clear that the man is only the head of the woman in the same way that Jesus is head of his followers, and he gave up his life for them.. It was never meant to be about domination. I know that some men abuse the so-called 'power' the headship gives them, but it's meant to be a responsibility, not a weapon.. Tec: I respect your viewpoint and your faith, but what you're saying sounds like a chicken-egg scenario to me. How can someone put faith in Jesus before the Bible if the only hard evidence (as in an eyewitness account) of his existence is contained in the Bible? Maybe the Watchtowers deceit and hypocrisy has turned me into a cynic...
AGuest

How can someone put faith in Jesus before the Bible if the only hard evidence (as in an eyewitness account) of his existence is contained in the Bible?
Who says the only hard evidence is contained in the Bible, dear QO (again, peace to you!). For example, how did MOSES put faith in him... when there was no Bible... not even any scriptures (save the Genesis)?
And he did. The Bible says so...
Again, peace to you!
A slave of Christ,
SA
tec

How can someone put faith in Jesus before the Bible if the only hard evidence (as in an eyewitness account) of his existence is contained in the Bible?
Most cannot. Most need something to see, something in hand - and most people won't even think to seek someone out who they have never heard about (a creator, yes, because I think many of us naturally 'seek' Him). But the One who shows us the Truth about our Creator... we need to hear about Him. Either from someone else who knows about Him - the witness accounts in the bible, as well as people today who witness about him - OR in a direct revelation (such as in the case of Paul - though even Paul had heard of him; just didn't believe in him)
But none of this says that the bible has to be infallible or inerrant. Or literal, even. Some of it can be scripture, other parts history, other parts morals, other parts witness accounts, other parts laws, etc. But it does tell us about this One; this Christ. Then once we know about him, perhaps we might want to actually know Him, Himself. And if we have just a bit of faith based on what we're told, then go to Him. Listen for Him to answer, to teach and to guide - in spirit. It is unfortunate that there are many deceivers who lie and say that they know Him as well, when they actually do not. But that is all the more reason to go directly to Him, the Truth.
So if you want to know Him, then keep knocking, keep asking for the Holy Spirit... and my suggestion in the meantime is, if you love Him, to do your best to follow Him.
John 14:23
Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him."
(As a side note, I agree with Shelby (peace to you) above as well. Without the bible or anything, God could (and did) send His spirit to help, at least those with faith to hear - such as in the case of those who wrote about Christ before He came as a man.)
Peace to you,
Tammy
AGuest

Agreed, dear Tams (the greatest of love and peace to you!). Interesting, it seems that perhaps none of the uber-Bible-believers apparently know that Moses (who obviously didn't have a Bible) knew our Lord, but he did... long, long before even the OT was canonized. In that light, I would like to share the following, if you dear folks will indulge me:
"By faith Moses, when he had grown up, refused to be known as the son of Pharaoh's daughter. He chose to be mistreated along with the people of God rather than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a short time. He regarded disgrace for the sake of Christ as of greater value than the treasures of Egypt, because he was looking ahead to his reward."Hebrews 11:24-26
"JaHVeH your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. For this is what you asked of JaHVeH your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of JaHVeH our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die." JaHVeH said to me: "What they say is good. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account." Deuteronomy 18:15-18
Moses built a tabernacle "after the pattern he was shown in the mountain." That tabernacle had various compartments... including a HOLY... and a MOST Holy. Christ, the Son... is the Holy [One of Israel]... and JAH, the Father... is the MOST Holy [one of Israel].
While "Israel" (NEW Jerusalem) is the temple of God (1 Corinthians 3:16) and so the "place" where He dwells... God and Christ are the "temple"... the Holy and MOST Holy... IN New Jerusalem. Revelation 21:22.
The entire City of New Jerusalem is made up of PEOPLE. SPIRIT people. And the holiest and MOST holiest in that City is in the TEMPLE... that is Christ... and God. "See" the tabernacle/temple... and you will "see" New Jerusalem; how it is structured. The only difference is the cornerstone, foundation, pillars, stones, etc., are people. Not literal bricks, etc.
Moses knew this. He SAW... and built a physical model replication... or "type"... of the ANTITYPE - the thing foreshadowed, the TRUE "tent" of God - the "place" for Him to dwell... His people. Moses knew what he was constructing... and WHO it represented... not WHAT... at every aspect.
C'mon, dear ones - if you're going to put your FULL faith in a thing (here, the Bible), you should at least know what it says. Even if you don't understand it. Or... concede that perhaps you really don't know. There is nothing to be afraid of... or ashamed of. Absolutly no worries, though, if the latter is the case. Because there is One who can explain what's in it TO you... if you ask. Because he was there. He knows what is true, what isn't... and what that which IS true means.
I truly hope this helps and, again, peace to you all!
A slave of Christ,
SA
The Quiet One

Tec and Aguest: Thank you for your time, effort and patience. If I've learned one thing for certain, it's that not all 'apostates' become cynical atheists (I'm not having a go at those people, just saying) or even people with no morals (just to be clear, I'm not talking about atheists or a particular group of people here), or love for God, as the Society would have us believe. I understand New Jerusalem and the other things mentioned, but I wonder if you still miss my point. All of these things, including Moses, you are again quoting from the Bible to prove the Bible.. No problem with that, I almost envy the strength of your faith. What you may fail to understand is that ALL my life until a few weeks ago when I fully 'woke up', I , not perhaps with my thinking ability, but wholeheartedly (I was more than willing to sign a no blood form in at least one instance) believed that 'the Truth' was the answer to everything and I believed everything I was told (without really proving it to myself). So I feel as though believing in anything or anyone could just lead to me being duped/controlled again. My faith in people and Jesus has fallen apart, how can I trust in any potentially man-made concept again? I feel lost...
trevor

The Quiet One
I understand New Jerusalem and the other things mentioned, but I wonder if you still miss my point. All of these things, including Moses, you are again quoting from the Bible to prove the Bible.
Very well put.
cofty

If I've learned one thing for certain, it's that not all 'apostates' become cynical atheists - The Quiet One
I agree that cynicism is not healthy - on the other hand, skepticism is essential if you are to avoid being misled again.
The Quiet One

Cofty: I see what you mean.. Your post helped me a great deal as it forced me to look up the exact definition of skepticism, which led me to look at the basic philosophy of skepticism that Socrates held throughout his life. This website brought out something I think is relevant to this thread, sorry about the length, but it's important.. [url]http://public.wsu.edu/~dee/GLOSSARY/SKEPT.HTM[/url] "Socrates claimed that he knew one and only one thing: that he knew nothing. So he would never go about making any assertions or opinions whatsoever. Instead, he set about questioning people who claimed to have knowledge, ostensibly for the purpose of learning from them, using a judicial cross-examination, called elenchus . If someone made an assertion, such as, "Virtue means acting in accordance with public morality, " he would keep questioning the speaker until he had forced him into a contradiction. As in a court of law, this contradiction proved that the speaker was lying in some way, in this case, that the speaker did not really know whatthey claimed to know. If an assertion can be worked into a contradiction, that means that the original assertion was wrong.While Socrates never claimed that knowledge is impossible, still, at his death, he never claimed to have discovered any piece of knowledge whatsoever. After its introduction into Greek culture at the end of the fourth century BC, skepticism influenced nearly all other Greek philosophies. Both Hellenistic andRoman philosophies took it as a given that certain knowledge was impossible; the focus of Greek and Roman philosophy, then, turned to probable knowledge, that is, knowledge that is true most of the time. Christianity, however, introduced a dilemma into Greek and Roman philosophies that were primarily based on skeptical principles. In many ways, the philosophy of Christianity, which insisted on an absolute knowledge of the divine and of ethics, did not fit the Greek and Roman skeptical emphasis on probable knowledge. Paul of Tarsus, one of the original founders of Christianity, answered this question simply: the knowledge of the Romans and Greeks, that is, human knowledge, is the knowledge of fools. Knowledge that rejects human reasoning, which, after all,leads to skepticism, is the knowledge of the wise. Christianity at its inception, then, had a strong anti-rational perspective."
cofty

That is interesting background thanks.
Christianity at its inception, then, had a strong anti-rational perspective
In modern times a number of apologists have tired to claim a rational foundation for christian beliefs. Ultimatley though it remains at its heart a gnostic belief system, it is a claim for special knowledge conveyed by supernatural means that is not available to the uninitiated. We can see that clearly with Shelby's post above.
Reason rests on a solid foundation, theism requires constant reinforcement and an avoidance of evidence to the contrary. Nowhere is that more obvious than in attempts to defend the inerrancy of the bible.

Can the Bible be proved wrong?

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