To clarify, I'm asking would it not be injust to judge and give someone with a good heart/motive the same punishment as someone with a bad motive who committed the same crime (who would have stolen the bread and not paid the owner back, and didn't even need it)?
Judas and Unforgivable Sin
by corpusdei 122 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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No Room For George
The thing I always wondered is why would you betray someone who you know raised the dead on more than one occasion or healed the sick and infirmed or had a measure of control over demons who possessed a man, or walked on water, amongst many other things that were too many to be recorded on paper? There's some dudes down the street from where I live who I wouldn't look at the wrong way if you catch my drift. The kind of guys that make people disappear.
So if Jesus was real, and all the miracles attributed to him were real, why would one of his closest followers betray someone that powerful? Is it possible the story was bunk to begin with?
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Chariklo
To clarify, I'm asking would it not be injust to judge and give someone with a good heart/motive the same punishment as someone with a bad motive who committed the same crime (who would have stolen the bread and not paid the owner back, and didn't even need it)?
Seems that way to me. Intent, motivation is what matters, isn't it? Maybe unless you're a JW.
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snowbird
I can think of a number of things, Miz.
Envy.
Malice.
Greed.
Disillusionment.
Contempt.
Disrespect.
Perhaps a combination of all of the above?
I do know one thing, at the Evening Meal, Judas played a cat-and-mouse game with Jesus of Nazareth.
He also never referred to Him as Lord - simply as Rabbi.
Syl
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charlie brown jr.
If I were around back then I would of gotten my 30 pieces of Silver and betrayed his ass too.....
The story would'nt be the same thou...
[1] Now the Feast of Unleavened Bread, called the Passover, was approaching, [2] and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were looking for some way to get rid of Jesus, for they were afraid of the people. [3] Then Satan entered Charlie, called Brown Jr., one of the Twelve. [4] And Charles went to the chief priests and the officers of the temple guard and discussed with them how he might betray Jesus. [5] They were delighted and agreed to give him money to pay his cable bill. [6] He consented, and watched for an opportunity to hand Jesus over to them when no crowd was present for he didn't want to make a scene....
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godrulz
Charik: Yes, Jesus knew that Judas was going to betray him at the Supper because Judas was already heading down this path and it was in his heart to do so and Jesus knows present reality. This is different than saying Jesus knew it in His preexistence or even at the beginning of His ministry when He chose Judas as an apostle (He would not choose a betrayer or devil and call him an apostle after a night of prayer; Judas BECAME these things in a later chronology; as reality changed, Jesus knew this new disposition that did not exist initially; God/Jesus knows reality as it is and reality is contingent/changing moment by moment).
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snowbird
This is different than saying Jesus knew it in His preexistence or even at the beginning of His ministry when He chose Judas as an apostle (He would not choose a betrayer or devil and call him an apostle after a night of prayer ...
You state that so dogmatically, Godrulz.
How can any of us say what the HS would or would not allow?
Also, consider that the Greek world for devil means one who tries to overthrow.
Doesn't that fit Judas Iscariot?
Syl
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snowbird
This is different than saying Jesus knew it in His preexistence or even at the beginning of His ministry when He chose Judas as an apostle (He would not choose a betrayer or devil and call him an apostle after a night of prayer ...
You state that so dogmatically, Godrulz.
How can any of us say what the HS would or would not allow?
Also, consider that the Greek world for devil means one who tries to overthrow.
Doesn't that fit Judas Iscariot?
Syl
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corpusdei
AGuest>>
The prophecy never said WHO it was that would fulfill the act, but simply that the act would occur.
Judas could, at ANY time, have resisted the Adversary. He didn't. Had he done so, the Adversary would have simply moved on to another disciple... and another... and another... until he found one who allowed himself to be used.
True, but someone would fulfill the prophecy. If not Judas, then I'd be asking about Judas' brother Bob.
First, again, betrayal by JUDAS was not prophesied, foretold, OR pre-decided. That is a LIE and a false teaching. It was simply fore-KNOWN, so that it could be FORETOLD
You also go on to point out that prophecy is similar to us being able to predict the location of an ant travelling along a path. I'm perfectly willing to accept that, however, this viewpoint means that God's prophecy is predictave, but fallible. We ants could change course, and by doing so invalidate prophecy. And if God's prophecy is fallible, that casts doubt onto all other supposed infallible aspects.
Second, to say that Judas' sin was "unforgivable" is premature... and judgmental. Judas repented (which is why he tried to hang himself); however, it is not ours to say that such is insufficient.
It is common Christian theology that the act of suicide, or self-murder, is a cardinal sin - even though Judas only made the attempt. I will concede to calling it unforgivable - although the heart of my question is more if Judas comitted a sin by function as the instrument of prophetic fulfillment, you are correct that the facet of whether that sin was unforgivible is ultimately up to the Divine.
I respect the obvious bredth of your understanding, thanks for the comments.
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corpusdei
godrulz>>
Hello again!
The Old Testament does not prophesy him by name at all. Like other verses about Jesus that seem out of context, the Spirit applied some verses to Judas by way of illustration/parallel to an OT situation, NOT predictive prophecy like most assume
The Old Testament also does not prophesy Jesus, or King David, or virtually any other scriptural persona by name as I recall. And the devil's in those details, because I'm quite certain that through the course of history there are dozens upon dozens of people and situations that can be pointed to in order to fulfill prophecy. Similar to my comment to AGuest, if it had not been Judas, then I would have been asking about the Great Betrayer, Judas' brother Bob.
So, the Judas thing was not predictive prophecy nor set in stone
This goes against the entire nature of what prophecy is. If Divine prophecy is not set in stone, is not predictive then it is fallible. Which goes against more scripture than I can think off.
A verse about Jesus in Egypt is applied illustratively because it parallels a historical situation, but it is not truly predictive prophecy
Then it is not prophecy, it is illustration.
God does not choose a devil, but he freely became one later on.
Again, the name of the devil doesn't matter. Ultimately, even if there had not been a prophetic fortelling of the betrayer of Judas, Jesus had to die as a part of the ransom sacrifice. So the question remains - by acting as the negative force in the fulfillment of that prophecy, did Judas (or Pilate, or Judas' brother Bob, whoever) commit a sin, being that they would seem to be part of Divinely manipulated events?