Judas and Unforgivable Sin (page 5)

Mary

AGuest said: The prophecy never said WHO it was that would fulfill the act, but simply that the act would occur. Even my Lord didn't know it would be Judas.....First, again, betrayal by JUDAS was not prophesied, foretold, OR pre-decided. That is a LIE and a false teaching. It was simply fore-KNOWN, so that it could be FORETOLD... that my Lord would BE betrayed by one close to him...

But that theory raises more questions: If it were fore-known beforehand that someone close to Jesus would betray him, how could that be known unless God somehow looked into the future and saw the event happening? If He did, then he did know it would be Judas who betrayed Jesus, although I tend to agree that God did not make Judas do it....

still thinking

John 6:64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

I am not sure how anyone can read into this that if it wasn't Judas, then someone else would betray him. Some other versions are more specific .

International Standard Version (©2008)
But there are some among you who do not believe..."-because Jesus knew from the beginning those who weren't believing, as well as the one who would betray him.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
But some of you don't believe." Jesus knew from the beginning those who wouldn't believe and the one who would betray him.

To me, this is very specific....he knew who the one was. He knew he had to give his life up for us, he knew he would be betrayed, why wouldn't he know who the betrayer was?

godrulz

aguest: Judas had remorse, not repentance, a condition of forgiveness. (which does not mean fore-in advance). Judas is called a son of perdition/hell after his death and was filled with Satan before he died with no report of him coming around in the end. He was not saved in the end or Scripture would imply this (a believer who commits suicide can be forgiven, but an apostate is not a believer and is damned because he rejected Christ).

still thinking: from the beginning (as used elsewhere) is an idiom relating to the early falling away of Judas...it does not mean from eternity or from birth, but near the beginning of ministry; he was chosen an apostle, but BECAME a devil. He was not chosen as a devil.

still thinking

Godrulz...

it does not mean from eternity or from birth, but near the beginning of ministry; he was chosen an apostle, but BECAME a devil

I agree that Jesus did not know this from birth. But he certainly did when he chose his appostles. But knowing something and causing it a two different things. And saying that it could have been any one of the appostles contradicts John 6:64. Dont you think?

I do think that God knew from the beginning....but again....knowing and causing are different concepts.

godrulz

Eternity is endless time, not timelessness (I wonder if JWs accept Augustinian/Platonic 'eternal now' or not, the traditional, but wrong Christian view). This affects whether or not God has exhaustive definite foreknowledge or not.

The chronology is that Jesus prayed to the Father and picked 12 for his inner circle and called them apostles (Judas was called an apostle specifically). They did the works of God with the power of God. Jesus would not chose a devil. Early in the ministry, Judas started going off track. Jesus would know this changing contingency that was different from the initial choosing. Later, Satan filled him and later he became a betrayer. He was not predestined or born this way (verb tense 'became'). There is no indication that Judas was in rebellion when chosen (would not be wise to pick him). The possibility of him going rogue was known, but the actuality/certainty developed later in space-time leading to a change in Jesus' knowledge and relations with Judas. A careful look at chronology and Scripture supports this view and answers the objections that impugn God's character and ways. It upholds free will and personal responsibility and also allows God to work responsively to ensure the Lamb would be sacrificed (which was really not dependent on a betrayer, per se, especially Judas in particular). Peter denied Christ, but was restored. Judas denied Him, but was not restored. It was God's will for both to be faithful to their initial state and calling. The person is to blame, not God in any sense. Foreknowledge also means the future would be fixed and it could not be changed even if God wanted to. It would root the choice in something other than the agent for it to be certain vs contingent in advance (determinism).

still thinking

If Jesus knew before the event at all, surely this is Foreknowledge. Regardless of the time frame.

There is no indication that Judas was in rebellion when chosen (would not be wise to pick him)

Does this not still point to knowing what will occur? He did not make him commit this act, but he knew he was going to do it. So YES, it would be wise to pick him, because he is carrying out what was fortold by his father. An event that was going to happen, because it was his inclination.

AGuest

I think most of what is directed to me was responded to a page or so ago (may you all have peace!). There is one thing, though:

repentance, a condition of forgiveness.

Based on this, dear godrulz (peace to you!), you do not yet understand the love... and mercy... of God, through Christ. He forgave the sins of MANY who showed no repentance at all, nor were they asked/directed to. I am to share with you, then, what he said to me as a reply to your understanding:

"I did it, do it, and will do it, child... because I WANT to."

He also said that none of us, not ONE... is in a position to say what, for a certainty, the result as to Judas SHOULD be. Because none of us are worthy of life but all are sinners and so the life that we DO receive, if we do, is due to the UNdeserved kindness of the Most Holy One of Israel.

I'm thinking that since WE don't deserve it, dear one, we're really kind of the same "boat" as Judas: dependent upon mercy. And no one can say to whom God will show mercy, right?

I hope this helps and, again, peace to you!

YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

SA

godrulz

He knew of the possibility vs certainty. When Judas' heart changed, Jesus knew about it. God knows reality as it is. Apart from determinism, foreknowledge is not possible except proximal predictions based on know patterns (like Peter's character and rooster crowing, as predicted; God could orchestrate the rooster but does not tamper with men's wills). It was also not foretold by the Father in the Old Test., but a verse that parallels the situation was applied after the fact (illustrative fulfillment).

Repentant faith/continuance in the faith are conditions of salvation. We can forgive evil doers, but this is different than eternal destiny issues. Universalism is not true. It would be unwise to let a serial killer who does not repent on the loose. We are in need of mercy and grace, but it is only extended to those who believe (Jn. 3:16 vs Jn. 3:36; those who love darkness and refuse to come to Him for life will perish; blanket forgiveness of everyone is not biblical).

tec

"I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy, and compassion upon whom I will have compassion." Eodus 33:19 (my 'eks' isn't working, sorry)

We don't get to say, Godrulz. We don't get to decide. We are not God, and we do not know. God will have mercy on whomever he wants to have mercy. I think what He decides carries much more weight than what we decide based on our interpretations of some things written.

Peace to you,

Tammy

still thinking

Amen to that tec

Judas and Unforgivable Sin

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