An Old Argument.... does it hold water? (page 130)

AK - Jeff

I think that a question worthy of some consideration ST.

Jeff

How can the problem be the creator, except that we have been created? It is a very sad thought that I am having that you would rather have never been. Did you read the book Girls Like Us by Rachel Lloyd? I think suffering takes on a different dimension when it is over and the sufferers get together for some real belly laughs!

still thinking

It is a very sad thought that I am having that you would rather have never been

I'm not sure how you read that into what I said n.drew.

If there is good and bad in this world n.drew...surely the CREATOR is the one who created it ALL. If indeed he did create it all??? If not...then what does that make him?

N.drew

The Lord did not write the script. And by the way, Shakespeare is a philosopher. A poet, playwrite AND a philosopher. You say he didn't call himself that and nobody else gave him the title? Haha, what's that suppose to mean? I just gave it to him. Oh, is it because I'm not male that I can't know anything, somebody else doesn't know first? OMgoodness, I'm actually going to get on the floor for this one! ROTFL

unshackled

Just stumbled across this, thought it was fitting to the discussion. Hitch sure doesn't mince words...

N.drew

Is he praying? You all believe that 200,000 years is enough time for human brain to evolve to a high enough state to design and build the web? How is the web fitting into survival? There are too many things that have been developed that are contrary to survival. Why are they present?

The desert is where Abraham lived. He was wibble. The people in the East are not wibble. I think.

You reap what you sow. The one's who have suffered are MUCH more likely to have learned to hear with their ear, so are much more likely to get a child's reward. An inheritance. The Earth. Forever.

N.drew

OK you beat it out of me. Gog is he (it's not one person) who finds out he can't have earth, so goes to take the possibility of having earth away from everybody. Nancy's theory of gog.

myelaine

dear OnTheWayOut...

in a series of posts that I made on this thread I showed that when Jesus was physically present He did what one might expect of a loving God(Jesus provided for us because He could BE with us sinners...God the Father can not be around sin, His holiness demands that WE would be destroyed). I went on to say that God's plan was that, being physically absent, He expected the Body of Christ to do what He did. the bible also shows that (just as Jesus said: john 14:12)the early church WAS able to do great works through those who believed. I suggested that God is only as active in the world as those who believe and do the works that He would do...this isn't making excuses for God's inaction...this is pointing to the "present" inaction of the people of God. (some of these people would sit in thier comfortable pew and demand that God give them the very best of everything because they are "king's kids"...they wouldn't give anything but a token to the poor because they see themselves as needy)...I also said that God's people should work as an army in the name of Jesus. It is important that God's people work in the name of Jesus as this gives glory to God.(this is where the opening of doors happens)...NOT man, obviously "divisive" man isn't deserving of the glory...surely anyone can see this.(this is where the closing of doors happens)...

You may reject what I stated above and in the quoted posts below as pie in the sky, carrot and stick or whatever...but...why reject out of hand the only solution that is spoken of in the bible...and the "glimpse" of said truth actualized in zechariah 14:16-19,20,21(Amen!)...if you don't personally have any other solution?...at least God has people on the same page with Him to work out His solution...what have you got?...it seems to me you've got hand wringing, chaos disguised as a superior, informed, and logically sound alternative to a God directed programme.

my post pg.48:

you said: "It bothers me most of all when we compare God to ourselves as being a loving parent...because I don't see this in the world. I see death, starvation, disease and destruction...as a loving parent, if we had the power to do something about it we would. He doesn't. "...it is shown in the bible and proven in the world that God works primarily on the "spiritual man" in this realm. the "flesh man" is to be cast off or the "physical sorrows" are to be credited as nothing compared to the joy of the (redeemed) world to come. romans 8:18:23 (luke 22:37)

having said that, have you excercised your "power" (in this world) to be of utmost assistance in the fight against death, starvation, disease and destruction?...

you know, God opens doors and closes forever doors that go no where.

my post pg.49:

you said: "I just love it when we question what God does or does not do, people always come back to 'what are you doing?'

Well, that is not the question here. Plenty of humans do plenty to help and plenty don't. The question is...why does God let children starve to death. Are they not his children? "...

I asked you what you were doing because if you don't believe in God then you don't have reason to pass the buck do you?...you said that plenty of people do help the poor of other nations... I know plenty of people do...do you? until you do more than the minimum (out of guilt) you still don't have reason to pass the buck do you?

I suspect that you didn't bother to read the scriptures that I included. The bible says that God has a plan.(romans 8:18-23) Those who believe in His Son as their redeemer were to spread this message to the ends of the world. typically this would mean that a significant number would be on the same page so to speak and working in uniSon as an army (actually extending effort as well as resources for the oppressed in the name of Jesus)of God taking direction from Him and doing His will we would feed the hungry and generally make the world a better more equitable place...BUT...mankind (including unfortunately some who call themselves christians), being generally self-centered and power hungry, decided that this plan didn't serve thier purposes. In fact it went against their plans, their very nature and character.

God also knew our unredeemed fallen nature and character would eventually lead us to destroy ourselves completely...that's why Jesus said that the things concerning Him had an end(luke22:37)...there will be an end to God's efforts to redeem mankind. That end is soon because He cares for these little ones who have suffered at the hands of unredeemed mankind. He's going to disallow passing the buck and take these little ones back to Himself.

p.s. these little ones are NOT gods...they are humans...OUR human children.

my post pg 50:

the bible says that the whole world is under the sway of the evil one...that means that God doesn't hold much sway over the people of the world either. in Jesus' time He showed that He had control over nature (calming of the sea and the bursting nets of fish). the bible also implies that as evil men wax worse and worse toward the time of the end natural disasters will increase.

After the redeemed of God AND creation is redeemed(romans 8:18-23) God will hold sway. Nature will be under His control again. incedentally, "backsliding" isn't going to go unnoticed...zech 14:16-19

God allows us our free will but our choices have also allowed for our loss of protection from Him.

p.s. still thinking...God made all from one blood/clay (acts 17:26)in this way we are His offspring...but God has adopted spiritual children to continue on with Him into eternity...we are not all His adopted spiritual children.

love michelle

p.s. tec, re: your post# 6708 pg.61...we don't have to (nor could we) defend God or Jesus. we are called to defend "the faith" or "gospel".

still thinking

the bible says that the whole world is under the sway of the evil one...that means that God doesn't hold much sway over the people of the world either.

So why did God allow the evil one any sort of power in the first place? And if God doesn't hold much sway...how is he going to do anything about it?

If he has allowed satan/the evil one or whatever you want to call him to do this to humans...what sort of god is that? But then, if he hasn't much sway...he has no control over satan/the evil one, in which case why put any faith in God if he is so powerless?

So he created us...had no control over satan who misleads us, and then we have to be adopted by him once WE prove OURSELVES good enough. And its our fault isn't it?

PSacramento

I love Hitchens, he's just a cool dude, but he doens't knwo much about Christianity at all, it's what some call "Sunday school theology".

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

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