An Old Argument.... does it hold water? (page 135)

sizemik

Sure would be easier to just believe . . .

It used to be . . . then it became difficult one day. Hard-hearted of me, some would say.

ziddina

They were DAMNED lucky - if that eruption had been a LITTLE bit stronger. [Zid]

"Strange, that, isn't it? ..." tec

Actually, it's not...

I can quote at least two examples of volcanologists within the last 100 years, who had VERY lucky escapes, even though they were in the teeth of the volcanic eruption... And there are many more examples than that...

Well, except that one example that I was thinking of - the French couple who made it their life's work to photograph eruptions, and successfully got VERY close to a number of violent eruptions, finally lost their lives in a pyroclastic flow in Japan...

Luckily for the Israelites, apparently they only took the inspiration for their theology from the volcanic eruption - perhaps "eruptions" - apparently they didn't try getting TOO close to very many eruptions; just used the "fire" motif as inspiration for their "burnt" offerings in the relative safety of their tabernacles/temple...

"...Knowledge of good and bad. Not knowledge, itself. Not only that, but knowledge of... as in knowing good and bad. Death, I imagine, falls under 'bad'. ..."

That account ALWAYS bothered me, even as a child...

Let's see what the account actually says...

Genesis 2: 9...:

"The Lord God caused to grow out of the ground every tree pleasing in appearance and good for food, including the tree of life in the midst of the garden, as well as the tree of the knowledge of ggod and evil. ..."

Genesis 2: 16-17...:

"And the Lord God commanded the man, "You are free to eat fom any tree of the garden, but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die."..."

Genesis 3: 5...:

"..."In fact, God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."..."

Several things bothered me about this "tree of the knowledge of good and bad"...

First, since 'god' had apparently already given them a commandment, "do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and bad", then that commandment itself was the BEGINNING of knowledge of good - and bad... When told of this, they then knew of something supposedly "bad" - eating of the tree...

Secondly, given that the first commandment separated "good" from "bad", how in the heck would they become "like God", if they were ALREADY learning to separate "good" from "bad"...

Also, that story REALLY reminds me of the fairy tales I read - CONSTANTLY - as a child... I've been trying to recall WHICH fairy tale it is most strongly reminiscent of - not "Cap O' Rushes", not "Aladdin's Lamp" - though it does have some elements in common - a "magical" item that has "dangerous" magic if not used correctly...

Meh. I'll have to go back through my childrens' encyclopedia and see if I can find that fairy tale - it's nagging/nibbling at the back of my memory, but I can't quite bring it out...

Zid

AK - Jeff

Don't you find it interesting Zid, that most of the OT, and in fact much of the NT too, sounds like fairy tales? Once rational thought lifted me out of the 'faith funk' it all looks like that. Perhaps they sound like precisely what they were/are - tales told by a superstitious culture to define things they could not understand and to produce a form of control over others who listened [and later read] them.

In fact, I would actually find Homer or F Baum's imagery to be more believable as something worthy of 'belief' if I had never been familiar with them and they were presented as 'holy'.

I find it disturbing now that billions of sheep just baaa baaa baaa along believing such drivel, and then compelling the next innocent generation to do the same. My great hope is that over a much shorter time, due in large part to the information technologies that drive our planet and cultures now, that such superstition and voodoo science/religion will one day fade into the history books like Greek mythology.

Jeff

N.drew

I believe the divine and the rational can make sense together. I do.

"Whoever wants to be greatest" (that would be Jah) "must become the least" (that would be Jah).

OK And the "knowledge of good and bad" couldn't it be a realisation of what came before and what will come after?

The breaker of the "fruit" would have made it terribly unbalanced (because it wasn't ready) and indistinquishable because it was "eaten".

Indeed, you might rightly call it a "fairy tale" because it wasn't actually acted out. It was realized, which is invisible. Like fairies are invisible.

N.drew

The one who first "ate the fruit" would not need to be the first person who lived. Because it was so long ago. By now the genes will be mixed. No? Hahahahahhaha I'm not laughing at You. Then who? OH I don't know.

tec

First, since 'god' had apparently already given them a commandment, "do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and bad", then that commandment itself was the BEGINNING of knowledge of good - and bad... When told of this, they then knew of something supposedly "bad" - eating of the tree...

They knew about the reality of bad, yes. (the tree was there; it e x isted) But they did not know bad (as in intimate knowledge or experiencing bad/death - which seems to be represented by eating) until they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and bad. Something they had been warned not to do for their protection.

There is no problem knowing the difference between good and bad.

Be interested to see which fairytale this reminds you of, if you can find it.

Peace,

Tammy

N.drew

Hansel and Gretel

ziddina

"Hansel and Gretel..." N.drew

Hah! Noooooo.....

But "magical" trees abound in ancient mythology - the Sumerian legends [which pre-date the bible by well over a thousand years] had a 'magical' tree in some of the mythology of the Goddess Inanna...

And it may be THAT, that is causing the bible story to seem so - typical...

The Vikings - whoops, Norsemen - also believed in a massive, sacred "tree", "Yggdrasil", but according to Wikipedia, there were other "sacred" trees in Norse mythology...

To the Celts, many different trees were "sacred"... They even had "sacred groves" - and apparently the belief in a "sacred grove" also existed in the regions of Israel and its surroundings. If I recall correctly, Leolaia or another scholar on this board posted a thread discussing the "high places" and other sites sacred to the heathens, and among those sites were "sacred groves"...

Here's an article from Wikipedia that would be a good starting point... I'm adding it in case anyone wants to do further research, and for my own personal reference in future, if I have time to pursue further research on the subject...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_life

Here's a link to Wikipedia on the "Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil/Bad"...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tree_of_the_knowledge_of_good_and_evil

Within that article, this VERY interesting comment is made:

"Gordon and Rendsburg[1] have suggested that the phrase " [can't get the hebrew letters to post here] ", translated good and evil, is a merism, i.e. a figure of speech whereby a pair of opposites are used together to create the meaning all or everything (as in the English phrase, "they searched high and low", meaning that they searched everywhere). They conjecture, therefore that the tree of the knowledge of good and evil means tree of all knowledge. This meaning can be brought out by the alternative translations tree of the knowledge of good and of evil (the word of not being expressed in the Hebrew) or tree of knowledge, both good and evil. The phrase occurs twice as applied to the tree, Genesis 2:9, Genesis 2:17. It also occurs twice as describing the knowledge gained Genesis 3:5 and Genesis 3:22 where it may be translated perhaps with knowledge, both good and evil. ..."

Which takes us back in the direction of: "god" wanted to keep "knowledge" for himself; it was therefore "wrong" or "bad" for HUMANS to seek out knowledge...

And that takes us back to where we first embarked on this discussion; who wants to worship a 'god' that claims all knowledge for HIMSELF, and WANTS humans to remain in ignorance???

N.drew

Houses are made of trees.

ziddina

SOME houses are made of trees...

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

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