An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff 1495 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  AGuest

  Isn't that such a lovely gesture?!

  It truly is, dear Jay (peace to you!), although your comment indicates that you can't/don't see that: had I posted that He chose, you would have taken issue and clamored about how unfair His choosing is... yet, when I say that the choice is OURS - which really is the epitome of fairness because it leaves it to you and me to choose ("Choose for yourselves whom you will follow!")... you still take issue.

  Makes me understand... sadly... all the more his statement as to the little children in the marketplace ("We played the flute but you didn't dance; we sang a dirge, but you didn't mourn")...

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant (always) and a slave of Christ,

  SA, who is "African American", yes, dear N.drew (the greatest of love and peace to you, dear one!)... along with 1 cup of English, a half-cup of Tuscaroran native, and a tablespoon or two of Portuguese...
• 

  jay88

  @Shel

  I see and understand it clearly (your statement I highlighted).....

  look at it again and tell me the implications of that statement, in light of the OP's statement

  tell me what you think,....
• 

  N.drew

  peacemaker-bravely declares God's terms which makes someone whole

  http://concordances.org/greek/1518.htm

  "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God."
• 

  AGuest

  look at it again and tell me the implications of that statement, in light of the OP's statement tell me what you think,....

  Well, I went back and re-reviewed the OP's statement(S)... and (1) I'm not sure which one you're referring to specifically, but (2) I think I've pretty much shared what I think, what I believe, and what I have come to know. The implications of MY statement is that everyone is pretty much going to receive what they (or those who speak for them, including parents, unfortunately) CHOOSE. Which is not necessarily destruction, but certainly may also be not salvation from destruction.

  Which, IMHO, is fair. I mean, I might not WANT to die, at all, let alone prematurely... and certainly wouldn't choose to do so by a sea of hot lava. But if I CHOOSE to build my house at the base of an active volcano, well, then... That it historically hasn't erupted but every 2,000 years or so means... what? It's a volcano - who really knows WHEN it will erupt?

  It's not like as it is with man, dear one. You know, where you can be sitting at your dining room table, say, enjoying a lovely meal with your family... reminiscing over the day's events... when a bomb suddenly drops out of the sky willy-nilly... killing you and/or your children... because some folks several thousand miles away are looking for some guy who MIGHT be hiding SOMEWHERE in or near your village (not in YOUR house, of course... heck, you don't even know the guy... but... oh, umm, oops... ). No "accidents" or "casualties". Nothing but folks' choices.

  How's that?

  Again, peace to you!

  YOUR servant... and a slave of Christ,

  SA
• 

  sizemik

  OK But someone somewhere said quacks quakes are Earth natural response for needing more room for more people, and people who need money for good works don't have enough money for the planning, designing, and building of earthquake proof buildings because the money is being spent on bad works of, well you know, you know, don't you know?. Am I being round enough to remain in character Mr Jeff, sir? . . . N.drew

  N. drew . . . you provide some fascinating material to work with . . . thanks.

  I figure since you posted the above that it relfects your take on Earthquakes? Ultimately . . . that God deliberately gave us Earthquakes so we could learn how to build Earthquake-proof houses . . . and that people are too busy being bad to learn this skill, thus protecting themselves adequately from the all-wise all-loving gods mysterious ways?

  How do earthquakes give us more room? . . . is the Earth getting bigger? . . . is this some divine expansion policy?

  Please clarify for me.

  I'm not sure how round you are . . . but I'm sure your character remains constant.
• 

  N.drew

  OK. The earth isn't getting bigger? They say the continents once were one, what moved them? That other stuff is foolishness, and you have me wondering if you know it is. But since we don't speak the same language, I suppose I never will.

  Oh my dear poster, it was not I who brought up the un-truth that god-fearing people are backward. I don't remember who it was. That is called a coping mechanism. FYI

  What else might attribute to the quaking? Oil removery? But I am not scientist so I DON'T KNOW. Do I get points?
• 

  tec

  (okay this is my second try... I hit a button and erased everything.. despite me 'oh no.... no, no, no ;) )

  Q, since this does pertain to this thread, I guess we might as well have this discussion here.

  What could a loving god do?

  Immediately reinstate a garden of Eden where mankind no longer needed to work for food thus eliminating food resource conflicts and death from starvation.

  The garden of Eden didn't go anywhere. We did. But even if we were to have food for all (we do, btw... but there are some people who don't want to give, and people who don't want some to receive), this still does not address the deal with man dominating man. Man wants and takes more than what he needs. For power, for greed, for dominion. Man is the one who has to change... not a location of the Garden of Eden.

  (what's wrong with work anyway... even Adam was to tend the garden, wasn't he?)

  • Explain why he wants to be worshipped and assuming he does explain exactly what to do, written down unambiguously in all languages and delivered to all.

  Man has twisted what meaning is applied to worship as he sees fit. But God has said (in the bible, AND through His Son), that He wants us to do good to one another, to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to house the poor, to loosen the chains of injustice, to show mercy, and to love. To GIVE to one another. That is the kind of 'worship' that He wants.

  Consider the first and greatest commandment for instance... (according to Christ, the Truth)... LOVE God. Not worship God, but love God. The second commandment being love one another as ourselves. Why love God first? That is for our benefit. IF you love someone then you take good care with all of those who that someone loves as well.

  Open everyone's eyes to hidden things like angels and demons allowing them to be observed and understood by all.

  Does everyone want this?

  Even if we change your suggestion to mean everyone who WANTS this, then what would that do? Does knowing something eXists mean that you love and choose to follow that thing or One?

  Clearly establish what religious behaviors, doctrines, dogmas were correct and why they are correct. EXplain fully what the consequences, if any, that eXist for doing worship in other ways.

  I think He did this. Through His Son. There were no religious behaviors, doctrines, dogmas... only that He is the Christ and that we were to listen to Him. Nowhere is it written to follow anyone or anything other than Christ. But I think I get what you're saying. Establish this again... since man has muddied the waters so badly.

  What is there to stop man from doing so all over again, though? What if man does not want to listen, but would rather go his own way... as he has a habit of doing? I guess I would be curious as to what means you would have him use to clearly establish this... especially if it is such a simple thing as love one another as ourselves... and as Christ loved us.

  I guess I think he can't establish what religious behaviors, doctrines, dogmas are correct because... none are correct or needed. Just faith in Christ.

  I'm going to send this before I lose it, and then get to the rest, okay?

  Peace,

  Tammy
• 

  jay88

  Aguest: The implications of MY statement is that everyone is pretty much going to receive what they (or those who speak for them, including parents, unfortunately) CHOOSE

  ........

  Have you followed your own statement to it's conclusion, in regards to the big picture of your existence and the other 6.9999 billion people on earth?
• 

  sizemik

  They say the continents once were one, what moved them? . . . N.drew

  Plate tectonics, ocean floor spreading . . . powered by heat convection currents within the earths mantle. It's the way the earth is made and has been functioning all it's measurable life. The convergence of continents it also a geological cycle. Evidence shows it has happened more than once . . . and estimated 4 times over the earths 450M year history. Ice ages regularly decimate life here in a cyclic pattern also. Many species do not survive each time it occurs. Earth axis precession (google it) is generally accepted as the mechanism behind the periodic ice ages. Eathquakes are a consistent and necessary feature of the earths functionality. Earth science is fascinating . . . you should look into it more.

  So the question is . . . who made things this way . . . and why?

  Oh my dear poster, it was not I who brought up the un-truth that god-fearing people are backward. . . . N.drew

  Nor I

  But since we don't speak the same language, I suppose I never will. . . . N.drew

  Speak to me anyway . . . I think we're doing fine.
• 

  tec

  Heal all child / spouse abusers. No one needs that.

  Heal them how?

  Introduce miracle medicine so that illness or accident can be solved rapidly and with the minimum of suffering.

  Miracle medicine that man would not lord over his fellow man?

  It is not the flesh that counts. In this life, sure... but in the long run, no. It is the spirit that counts.

  Remove pain at childbirth.

  Well, you'd have to change the flesh altogether... since the body stretches and tears and all sorts of things during childbirth, and a consequence of that is pain. We do have medicine that removes the pain (most of it). We just don't have medicine that removes the pain without anything negative for the child... yet.

  But as a woman, pain at childbirth is a fleeting thing. Once its over, its over... as though it never happened.

  Besides, that physical pain is nothing compared to the emotional trauma of parenting teenagers, (or the terrible two, threes, etc etc)

  But again, it is the spirit that counts.

  Give scientists the unifying theory that ties everything together.

  I don't really understand what you mean here.

  Cure all mental conditions so that everyone can actually make free will choices and enjoy a fullness of consciousness.

  Got to think about this one a bit. Though mental conditions are an affliction of the flesh too, right?

  Remove depression and headaches. Both useless.

  How would you remove depression without removing the things that cause it? Do we know what causes it?

  Headaches can be prevented a lot - eating, drinking, resting, sleeping enough. Can also be a warning sign of something that needs to be checked out.

  Q - a lot of these are cures for physical ailments. Physical ailments that we would not have were we in spiritual bodies (one day, but not yet). The flesh is not promised such things. In fact, it is promised the opposite.

  Remove the need for sleep since this is quite a useless trait and this would free up a lot of rooms.

  I love sleep. We dream, we take a breather, we refresh... sometimes our greatest thoughts and 'eurekas' come from sleep or that point between sleep and waking. Sometimes we're more open to something during sleep (our subconsious at work), that we are too "smart" or "wise" for when awake.

  Apologise for all the wasted lives, deaths and pain he's caused and also for presenting such a garbled message.

  He hasn't caused any. That's the point. We have caused all of that.. be it through our need to dominate, our ignorance, our cruelty, or our apathy.

  Immediately stop all earthquakes, natural disasters and extreme weather events.

  How do you know that life on this planet or in this universe would be possible without those conditions?

  Remove from all people's memories Star Wars 1-3

  Ah... well, you might have me there.

  (actually, I like them better than 4-6... now cast your stones!)

  Peace,

  Tammy