Evil Spirits

by LizLA 294 Replies latest jw experiences

  • InterestedOne
    InterestedOne
    And I'm not trying to build a theory.
    If that is the case, just to be clear, you are decidedly -not- applying the scientific method.
    Which would be what?

    Information about the scientific method is readily available online. It involves concepts such as hypothesis, falsifiability, theory, etc. If you refuse to apply these concepts to the subject under discussion, I'm just stating up front that you are not applying the scientific method.

    As for science, there is nothing in science that I can see that contradicts His teachings, and some things that support it. (more to come, I believe) Matter can transform to energy (and I assume vice versa, if according to Einsteins theory, there is the same amount of matter/energy in the universe at all times... just in different forms). Standing wave theory supports the possibility of this transformation or rather, our perception of solid matter. (putting on and taking off the flesh) Many accept the possibility of other (intelligent) life/beings in the universe(s), even other dimensions - which might be another form of energy or beings.
    Is that more along the lines of what you're thinking?

    I'm sure those ideas are interesting and relevant, but I was not so much thinking about listing various things that sound "scientific" as I was about actually applying the scientific method in the discussion.

    It isn't that I refuse to speak in scientific manner, but I am not a scientist, so I don't have the knowledge and I don't know all the rules.

    Having a scientific conversation involves developing a better understanding of the rules if one doesn't know them. I've barely scratched the surface myself, and I'm sure most of us here are still learning. On the other hand, if you refuse to even attempt to learn the rules and apply them, you are choosing -not- to communicate using the scientific protocol. If that is your choice, I was asking what your alternate protocol is for communicating what you mean by "spirit."

  • Qcmbr
    Qcmbr

    Late to the party as usual but was rofling at the favourite JWN insult - 'asshole'. To be fair bum holes are probably a good description of the skeptical person since we efficiently deal with regular helpings of sh*t. I daren't take this analogy any further lol.

    If only subjective believers would stop validating themselves with other peoples subjective delusions. There are no supernatural manifestations recorded that are not better explained by brain perception failures or by mental illness. We need to get over the stigma of talking about the brain as being capable of getting ill. I can get a cold and don't feel offended if someone suggests paracetamol and menthol oil. Putting aside mental illness as a source of spirit manifestations lets look at perception filters.

    When we experience something, especially something novel, we attempt to find meaning by relating it to what we have already associated in our mind with similar perceptions. This can produce quite harmless effects ( like making us feel warmer when a yellow light bulb is turned on though the temperature remains the same ) but it can also produce harmful effects (like making us afraid of heights to the extent that aeroplane flight triggers an involuntary and intense adrenaline surge .) Perhaps the most harmful of all is the ideological perception filter that once learnt and accepted can literally alter perceived reality. The most insidious ideas are the ones that require a priori acceptance of the expected outcome and attach a punishment for the failed perception. To illustrate - Santa knows your thoughts, is watching you and only brings presents if you are good. This sick idea led to 4 year old me 'hearing ' sleigh bells on the roof of my Grandma 's house one Christmas Eve and scaring me as I tried hard to pretend to be asleep in case Santa got angry at being seen.

    The problem we have here ( and I guess in general ) is an initial silly idea ( or ideological package ) which has been accepted at some point ( almost always as a child ) regarding an invisible world , whether that be a spirit world, a god , a world of grey aliens, a reptilian invasion etc. it matters not, once accepted it becomes a master perception filter. All new phenomenon are then fitted into a mental structure that supports the big 'idea' and a little like dry stone walls ( google them - they are all over UK farms ) they are substantial structures that nevertheless cannot be sustained under rigorous assault. Liz happens to have a filter that associates - lets take one listed thing - skin triggers ( touch) to invisible spirits. Her brain has happily concocted a framework story of two spirits ( probably with names and personalities ) and she is now filtering everything past them. A key to unlocking mental made up personalities is to actually ask what information they bring to the table that is authentic and uniquely unknowable ( ie not potentially sourced from within ) and in all cases an honest appraisal turns all personal gods, spirits, demons etc. into a friend in the pub limited to simply re- phrasing stuff you have already said to them. This is why no god/ spirit ever reveals new mathematical formulae or cancer cures or accurate useful prophecy.

    As a former believer I also used to have chats ( prayer ) with my perception filter ( Mormon god ) which gave me some pretty awesome experiences ( like when I received my mission call and was depressed to be going to Manchester but literally overnight, after a prayer for understanding, was filled with a feeling of love for all the people of Manchester - this 'feeling' was exposed rapidly as I met some real evil bar stewards and realised that people are the same everywhere and ' feelings ' don't match experienced reality. I didnt really suddenly love the 'people' of Manchester ) This perception filter does colour the world so that it seems to reinforce the filter ( confirmation bias re prayers, faux love, bliss while contemplating, emotional response to choral singing, peace in stressful situations etc.) And then we come to this...

    We subtly reinforce each others filters when a perceived threat to one would also threaten our own. Like a class action suit we leap to each others defence when just minutes before we were arguing the toss about what our filter allowed scripture x to mean. The hypocrisy that allows Protestants to burn Catholics and Catholics to pull out fingernails from heretics also allows believers to privately accept the falseness of others perception filter (anyone want to defend my former Mormon god ?) while publically defending and reinforcing them to shore up our own mental drywall ( there really is a spirit world you skeptical assholes !)

    Liz go live a full life, you almost certainly aren't being harassed by any real things. Suggest you don't do any more meditative studies until you confront your controlling meme and slay it first.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Tec and Shelby cheat using exactly the same method that creationists use. It goes something like this..

    "There is a lot of stuff that science doesn't know yet - therefore my theory is just as valid as yours."

    ProdigalSon has his own spin on this....

    "There is a lot of stuff science knows - or the ancient Incas used to know - but is being supressed by ... (insert your favourite boogie man) and by the way I am very, very, very angry"

    JudgeDread is more prosaic - "I have nothing at all to contribute but you're all assholes"

    Meanwhile the rest of us humbly limit ourselves to what actaully can be known, or what we are personally able to understand and get abused by those who are less able or willing to recognise the limits of reality.

    Qcmbr - great post!

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Nice post Q. Unfortunately your effort to use logic and reasonableness has probably caused you to join us assholes! Welcome to the party!

  • Witness My Fury
    Witness My Fury

    If being an asshole means freedom from fear and delusion then sign me right up!

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    I get the feeling that 'Liz' might have been here simply to promote the website they mentioned in their third(?) post. In any case, if they were describing an experience they actually believe themselves to have had, then there are many possible causes for such experiences including drug use, synaesthesia, sleep paralysis, fatigue, schizophrenia, or a host of other possibilities, none of which involve 'demonses'.

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Probably Jeffro. In a pm she urged me to purchase the cd's. Maybe she trolls all the religious sites advertising.

    NC

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Probably Jeffro. In a pm she urged me to purchase the cd's. Maybe she trolls all the religious sites advertising.

    NC

  • ziddina
  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    The particularly amusing/disturbing thing about this kind of 'experience' is that 'believers' rush in with retorts, claiming 'but you can't explain it' (even though there are bunch of valid explanations, as already indicated), and they go off on psuedo-scientific tangents about 'spirits' 'maybe' being 'energy' or whatever crackpot theory they happen to adhere to.

    Of course, it is readily observable that all life (let alone sentient life) requires a physical nervous system. But even aside from that, why don't the 'believers' suggest that such people first investigate their situation rationally, for what may be an actual life-threatening neurological disorder before indulging in their stories about ghosts, demons and jabberwockies??

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