Atheists..... throwing the baby out with the bath water ?
by snare&racket 403 Replies latest jw friends
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thetrueone
I'm no apologist for the WTBTS. But I've noticed a trend among SOME on this forum to take the position that, "If the WT taught it, it is wrong!"
I'm personally not of that opinion, for example their doctrine of not worshiping graven images, namely the cross, like some religions of Christendom do.
The hell doctrine, December 25 being Christ's day of birth and so on.
But I see what your saying nevertheless.
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Bungi Bill
snare&racket,
Your whole experience - and the conclusions that you arrived at - are very similar to mine on this matter. The only major difference was in the order that those conclusions were arrived at;
i.e. Before contact with the JWs, I had seriously questioned the relevance of religion, but thought that the Witnesses were somehow different.
Bill.
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Qcmbr
Here's another way I've looked at this very question.
What did my faith get right, what did it improve morally (the scientific morality of Harris) how am I better for my previous faith? The answer , oddly enough, was that there was not one single teaching that they got right. The reason being is that every single teaching was predicated on a lie. Let me give you a few examples:
1 - Families are forever. LDS philosphy revolves around the central idea of a family and its eternal existence. Nice idea, noble and fulfilling. What actually happened.
- Avoided relationships outside of church, got married in a hurry and had kids way too early (before we had a good enough income to support them.) I had a crippled relationship with my real father since he wasn't sealed to me in the temple. I got sealed to my mother's second husband who is a c*ck (emotionally retarded and a life leech who slowly killed my outgoing mother over the years and turned her into a house slave downgraded to listing reasons why it was better to stay with him than leave.) My religious views pushed me away from the 80% of the family who are not LDS and made the relationship with those 'in' somewhat dependant upon a shared lie (which having now exited means that side is a bit trashed as well.) Net result - pretty poor family closeness on all sides. Contributing cause - 'families can be together forever.'
2 - Chastity is more important than life. No sex outside marriage and no personal sexual release except when utterly asleep. No STDs , no pregnancies outside of marriage, extra commitment to wife. Reality.
- Intimacy issues when married. Hurried marriage ( 6 weeks from proposal to marriage) to avoid giving in to temptation - sh*t wedding. Missed some chances to get sexual experience especially during uni (could have helped marriage - will never know now) but also meant I never really felt one of the guys (talking about sex made me blush and I had no stories to tell.) Infrequent masturbation led to painfully humiliating confessions with various bishops. Sex made to seem very dirty rather than something supremely natural and potentially emotionally fulfilling.
3 - Honesty is important in all things. No lies even when it puts you at personal disadvantage. Reality.
- Job interviews nightmare since I will not blag and therefore struggle to sell myself. Repeated self appraisals and depressed feelings about self and ability buoyed up with a desire to be honest. No idea what honesty really means (30+ years living a lie and then finally fully realising that - double whammy) Now I find honesty as a fairly poor substitute for real social skills, tact, bravura and cheek. Honesty counts in less situations than one might imagine. Its much more important to relate to someone than to impose one's definition of truth (which is the root of honesty!).
4 - Humility. Christ died for your sins and asks only that you accept him into your life. Nice idea, keeps you level headed and appreciative of everyones worth no matter how well hidden it is. Reality.
- Never felt good enough, never felt worthy, never felt capable without help, even prayed to get good exam results. Ended up with a thought process that relied upon asking god for help and guidance all the time and blaming myself for any failure and praising god for any success. I became responsible for bad stuff and 'blessed' when good stuff came along. That is mental hell.
Now that I've escaped from the mind control that religion imposes the guilt is falling away, the fake love, the forced emotions, the smile hiding crushed hopes and dreams is gone. Now I feel much more capable and able to stand on my two feet and I finally realise. I am more moral than my faith. I would not kill my child in sacrifice, I would not accept anothers torture on my behalf, I do not accept eternal slavery worshipping a butcher god who kills those who disagree with him. My kindness exceeds any bible gods. Even the supposed good stuff is just paint ona rotten structure. Now I'm rebuilding my self image, my life, reaching out to all my family, accepting that I am no more amazing or despicable than the next person but that they and I are responsible for what we do with who we are. I feel happy to judge another's character and avoid those who I disagree with and to embrace those who I can relate to and know and respect others right to do the same to me.
I am free. My marriage is great. My kids are happy. I can die with a few standard regrets and a heart unfettered by guilt and a judgement day dread.
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cofty
Great post Qcmbr.
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metatron
Population decreasing along with energy supplies?
There's no evidence I see of that! How come?
Well, there all sorts of energy possibilities on the horizon - including vast amounts of shale derived gas supplies - so much so that Chesapeake Energy announced they don't want to drill much more in the Marcellus deposit as prices drop. Huge supplies in Poland and off shore in Israel, Cyprus and Lebanon. And the Bakken formation and Eagle fields in the US.
Also, MIT announced 'Cold Fusion' is confirmed, as well as NASA suggesting that it may be real as well. If so, energy supplies could be endless.
Population growing? Uh.... that all depends, where are you talking about? Poor people in Africa? Angry Muslims out of work amidst "Arab Spring'? Europe, Japan, Russia and both Koreas are headed to population loss, not growth.
The dominant culture that sustains civilization may be dying off.
metatron
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Twitch
"Faith, in the religious sense of the word, refers to maintaining belief in something for which there is insufficient evidence to justify holding the belief. Where the evidence is sufficient, we have no need for faith. But when we want to believe something for reasons other than because the evidence warrants our doing so, faith enters the equation"~~~ Ben Stein (I believe)
"faith" is often used as a substitute for "hope", "trust" or "belief".
So needing "absolute proof "would undermine the whole concept above !
Interesting quote and one I agree with. Faith is not based on evidence, by definition. Personal experience and belief, yes
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N.drew
Population decreasing along with energy supplies?
Population increasing, energy decreasing. (The kind of energy that moves the known world-I realize there are other energy sources). There are few people preparing for the inevitable which is food shortages and not enough clean drinking water. If you argue that I am wrong, you have proved my point which is the crisis is looming but the majority doesn't care to do anything about it until the crisis becomes obvious which will be too late to avoid a major catastrophe.
It might be good to start a thread on it, but I won't.
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metatron
I haven't proved your point.............. and that is the very point you miss!
Can you understand that populations in the developed world are headed FOR DECLINE? That Japan and Russia are already LOSING population? The real issue will be scarcity of workers/consumers in Europe and elsewhere. It's happening already.
Can you understand that some new energy sources raise the real prospect of being limitless, in practical terms? That this future of scarcity you predict may never happen? Likewise food and water shortages disappear as new energy sources are developed to eliminate them?
Have you ever heard of the Simon/Ehrlich bet about scarcity? And who won?
I guess I shouldn't be surprized at this utter lack of wisdom about demographics. Investment "experts" are loaded up with nonsense predictions because they simply ignore demographic trends. If you don't believe me, go to seeking Alpha and absorb the silliness there as highly educated bozos don't think about birthrates.
metatron
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Bungi Bill
The matter of energy sources is completely off-topic, and deserves a thread of its own.
Suffice, though, to quote a common saying in Western Colorado (the site of major deposits of oil shale) "Oil shale is the fuel of the future - and always will be."
As for controlled nuclear fusion, this had already been achieved before I started high school (which wasn't exactly yesterday!). The problem was then - and still is now - that the process used more energy than it released. (Uncontrolled nuclear fusion, in the form of the Hydrogen Bomb, has of course been around since the early 1950s).
No more of this, though, unless somebody wants to kick off a separate thread on the topic of energy sources!
Bill.