Being an ex-JW has nothing to do with me lacking a belief in God. So I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water. I don't believe in God because it just doesn't seem to make sense from a logical standpoint.
Atheists..... throwing the baby out with the bath water ?
by snare&racket 403 Replies latest jw friends
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witnessdater
"I think you were abused in some way and need religion to comfort you. There is no doubt that you have dealt with spiritual abuse, as you were a JW, and therefore have jumped into the arms of another religion to relieve your pain. But why do that? Why not give science and rational thought a chance?"
I am a scientist, and a Christian believer. Obviously, we could go on forever about this, but there is one main driver to show me why atheism cannot be a belief in what is actually true. And science drives it. Notice I didn't say science is what drives my belief in the Bible and its truthfulness, but it shows me why atheism can't be. Atheism is the belief that there is no creator, or God. That is the definition. Not just the disbelief in any one god, such as Christianity or Islam, but any god. Many famous atheists have tried to shy away from this definition, and say that they simply do not know. This belief system would be called agnosticism. The word itself is a derivative of a Greek word that when translated accurately to English means "ignoramus".
The one huge event that everyone agrees upon that began time as we know it is the Big Bang. It is as scientific as science gets. The Big Bang, once discovered, was a real problem for leaders and writers trying to prove atheistic thought via scientific argument. It implied a beginning, and therefore a cause, or an uncaused cause. Everything has a cause. The laws of physics may have even been different right around the time of the bang, but that says nothing to the basic knowledge we have that everything has a cause. That is basic science itself, finding the causes for a result, and coming to conclusions based upon observation. Ifthe relationship between cause and result isn't true, then you can't even know if your thoughts are sane or insane, or if you even know where you came from. Cause and result are as plain as the nose on your face. This is not arrogance - it is fact.
Literally, the moment before the big bang, there was nothing. This is a huge problem for atheists. It implies that something came from nothing, and this defies the First Law of Thermodynamics - ah, science. Energy is neither created nor destroyed. Yet, again, something from nothing. This implies the supernatural, and an intelligent creator. What we Christians would call a miracle. If you can unravel that mystery for me, and use your "science" to explain how something came from nothing, I might start listening. Your lack of belief in Christianity has nothing to do with science.
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loosie
I totally agree Snare. What bothers me the most is when people ask my religion and I tell them Iam an atheist, they clutch their chest gasp and take a step back as if this person that they knew all this time has suddenly grown horns before their very eyes. I am the same person they know me to be I just don't have an imaginary friend.
Loosie
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cofty
witnessdater - grooooan!
Where to begin with that train wreck? Anybody got the energy?
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NewChapter
You know the weird part for me is that I was methodically studying the bible to strengthen my faith. I completely approached it with a believing mindset. I always erred on the side of the bible (erred being the operative word) when contradictions came up. Cognitive dissonance did the rest. This went on for a couple of years, and my faith never waivered. Then one day, uninvited, a stray thought entered my head. It was like a floodgate had burst open. In the following moments, every piece of information my brain held rushed together and connected themselves to each other. I had filled my brain with so much knowledge, and had worked so hard to deny the bulk of that knowledge, that when it found a chink, there was no stopping it. I became an atheist in 30 seconds--or so it felt. Nobody was more surprised than me. I loved my religion. I loved the Bible. I loved God. I was not looking for an easy way out. I was not nursing wounds. I was not drawing on JW teachings alone. I had a lot of variety in my past. All of it, ALL of it was disproven in those 30 seconds. Thinking I could simply find the answers in a different church was ridiculous. I had not debunked the WT, I had debunked it all.
And I didn't ask for it. Thirty seconds before, I thought I didn't want it. When I say I was dizzy and lightheaded, that's not figurative. I actually swayed. My entire belief system had just exploded in my brain. Everything I was, everything I wanted, my entire understanding of the world had just been smashed. And it wasn't the WT that was smashed, it was the entire god/bible concept. LOL If Atheists were prone to say things like they had been born again--then this was my moment.
The following feeling was elation. I had never felt so real, so complete in my entire life. My brain worked freely, and I didn't try to suppress it. I allowed myself to ask all the forbidden questions, and the answers flowed. For the first time, I felt like me----unedited.
It is incredibly distasteful for me to hear the baby/bathwater analogy, or the wounded puppy theory. Such sentiments are so unlike my experience. Those that express them generally won't take our word for it. They are absolutely convinced that unless something bad happened, we would not give up our god belief. I know. I used to be one of them.
Be that as it may, perhaps some (and I mean SOME) believers must believe that there is something defective about me to give up god belief. I suppose the truth of the matter would be frightening for them. The idea that a person could be happy and fullfilled without spirituality flies in the face of everything they believe. So they must deny this truth. Again, I've been there. I understand. It's hard to realize that everything you work to maintain every day of your life is so completely unnecessary for another person. You must believe that you have something special, and attainable only in your way. But that's just not the case. If you accepted that, you might fear feeling like you are chasing rainbows when the pot of gold is right there next to you.
And then there are believers who are more universal in heart. They are fine with other mindsets, and not tempted to judge me as damaged. They just figure that I found the way that worked best for me. Generally they don't believe in punishment, so they can relax and just enjoy the company---without fearing for my eternal destiny. I am just trying to distinguish the I do recognize the difference between those that are quite secure in their faith and accepting that I have none, and those that frantically try to first convince me that I am broken, and then second, offer me the cure. THAT is ridiculous.
NC
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loosie
I am not a wounded puppy, but I am one pissed off dog at the timeI wasted being in that group.
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NewChapter
Witness---let me first say that the portion you chose to quote from my post was pure snark. I was turning accusations that I was spiritually abused therefore I am an atheist around to say perhaps that is why you are a Christian. Some people don't understand how completely offensive such a notion is, and sometimes sarcasm can turn it back and apply it in a separate context to bring out the ridiculous.
Implying that there is a beginning does not imply that there is a god.
How can something so complex, so astounding, so beautiful and powerful come from nothing? I ask this question not of the universe, but of a god. Where the answers stop, fantasy takes over.
We really don't know what is beyond this universe, so we don't know much about that first cause. Can you say for a fact that there was only nothing beyond this universe? I think not. The question is unanswered. Science is humble enough to leave it unanswered. They don't scurry around looking for an answer---any answer---just so they can feel they have a grip on it.
I can understand this. When I think about the enormity of the known universe, my heart actually speeds up. I become anxious. I am so insignificant. I have to stop thinking about it after a while, because I begin to feel like a dot within a dot within a dot. Vast amounts of time and space unsettle me. So I understand the impulse to make it okay. I can understand the need to believe that something is in total control---because I have so little. These are awe inspiring things, and my desire is to find something on which to transfer some all encompassing awe. Something more substantial than a vague concept or unanswered questions.
I also wish I could fly. But I'm not going to jump. One thing I know for sure. This god character has done nothing to show his presence to us. He has done nothing to indicate that we have an accounting, or that he will help us in anyway. I would think that a personality that could cause the big bang could at least do that much for humanity. But since it didn't, I conclude it either doesn't care or doesn't exist. Either choice changes nothing in my life. The outcome is the same. And so we will carry on without this personality, whether from it's own choice, or because it doesn't exist.
I am not so arrogant to claim I can state anything 100%. But I can state that the evidence has spoken.
NC
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fulltimestudent
Quote from New Chapter
The following feeling was elation. I had never felt so real, so complete in my entire life. My brain worked freely, and I didn't try to suppress it. I allowed myself to ask all the forbidden questions, and the answers flowed. For the first time, I felt like me----unedited.
May I enquire?
By happenchance, were you sitting under a bodhi tree at the moment of your awakening?
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bohm
witnessdater:
" I am a scientist, and a Christian believer. Obviously, we could go on forever about this, but there is one main driver to show me why atheism cannot be a belief in what is actually true. And science drives it."
this is going to be good...
The one huge event that everyone agrees upon that began time as we know it is the Big Bang. It is as scientific as science gets.
...everyone here does not include the people who propose brane cosmology or chaotic inflation which are hypothesis which directly contradict the above, nor does it include the many scientist who recognize general relativity break down in the early universe so we cannot say any definate about the universe in this regime. I take it your field is not cosmology ;-).
It implied a beginning, and therefore a cause, or an uncaused cause. Everything has a cause. The laws of physics may have even been different right around the time of the bang, but that says nothing to the basic knowledge we have that everything has a cause.
tell me how did we came about a "knowledge" everything has a cause, when you just stated our laws of physics break down? logically, it would follow your "knowledge" has nothing to do with the laws of physics, in other words, that is just your oppinion or hunch. Worse still, you need to define cause in a pretty funny way to make sence of quantum physics, where things does seem to occur with no clear cause.
That is basic science itself, finding the causes for a result, and coming to conclusions based upon observation.
That is an awfull definition of science, since you need to presume everything has a clear cause! A better definition would be to seek out regularities, try to figure out ideas with strong predictive power, etc.
Literally, the moment before the big bang, there was nothing.
how do you know that? many theories predict there was something before big bang, what evidence do you have as a scientist to firmly state they are wrong and there was indeed nothing? And by the way, it is a very strange argument for you to make since you are the one of us which CLEARLY rely on there being something before the big bang -- god.
It implies that something came from nothing, and this defies the First Law of Thermodynamics - ah, science.
even if you was right in your dubious application of the first law of thermodynamics (...and what an odd application...), it would only show there was something before the big bang.
Look, here is the underlying problem about what you have stated above: All your wadling around about cases and thermodynamics boil town to the assertion there was something before the universe and that something has to have caused the universe. Suppose i buy that entire line of argument (which for the record is not supported by observations or theory), then what? You jump to the conclusion that something must be god, the reason seem to be that you think scientists simply cannot think about pre-big-bang ideas, which i have demonstrated is trivially false. Your conclusion is just an assertion backed up by no evidence, which has no predictive power, which make no testable hypothesis and fail every way a theory can up to and including not being falsifiable.
Suppose i said: "The G field existed before the big bang. the G-field caused the big bang (why?) because that is what it does (how?) the way it does it", clearly i would just be stringing words together and make an assertion which is worse than "we do not know". But if i say: "God existed before the big bang. God caused the big bang (why?) because he wanted to (how) and did it the way he does it", i would pretty much describe your ideas.
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Crisis of Conscience
NewChapter, I have nothing to add except to say that I really enjoy the openness and honesty of your posts.
I can definitely say I'm agnostic, but atheism somewhat seems like a better fit for me. Your posts are more convincing to me in that regard, in comparison to a "believer's" point of view. I know your purpose is not to "convert" someone to atheism, but I find your thought process mentally stimulating. I lean towards what makes sense to me, and this seems to be it.
I just wanted to say that. I appreciate your awesome comments.
CoC