Atheists..... throwing the baby out with the bath water ?

by snare&racket 403 Replies latest jw friends

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  maksym

  Interesting Mak. Your theory is that it is 'easy' to go from WT to atheism. Your theory is that the bible cannot be understood without someone wiser to direct us. And who would that be? And who taught them? Who was first? -New chapter quoted

  Jesus taught the Apostles and they taught others before them. It is similar in a college university system. Information and knowledge is handed down through generations to teach the ones after them. I'm sure you will agree with this since you are in the educational system like me. Scientific knowledge is passed down so others can learn and build upon it.

  This theory of mine does not mean that there must be someone wiser to direct. Many times in modern day science we have had people that contributed to great formulae and principles who were not schoold formally that has contributed to science. Yet those people never taught or were schooled. Many scientists and great inventors of society today were discoverers on their own. It is the same in understanding the Bible and the Kingdom of God. You may be an Isaac Newton or Albert Eistein of today in faith and God. It does not take another person to eductate you before this happens, but in most cases we as individuals are not on that par. You go to school to learn about others that came before you. Do you rely on them to further your career? Can you succeed without your education or on the discoveries of scientist, mathemeticians, historians, etc, before you. I care to say not. You are you and will prosper regardless of others. No one needs another to interpret scripture but it is most required for most people to go to the great theologions, the spiritual people of the day to get insight. You would not do otherwise in science.

  So your theory is that this entire work was written out as fact, but should not be taken as such, because a rational mind cannot understand it. Therefore we must have faith in the understanding of other humans in order to have faith in the god presented. In other words, god cannot be understood by writings that were inspired by him, but only by more knowledgeable people who think they can offer the best interpretation.-quote by New Chapter

  The Bible can be understood by anyone. So can science and our world around us. But I can use the same argument against you to say that we must go to school in order to learn about geology, microbiology, anatomy, history, paleontology. I don't have to tell you that others before us paved the way in order for us to understand the world in science around us. Great scientists and experiments proved certain principles and those principles were passed down to further generations. It is the same in the Bible. Understandings of the Bible came from great men and women and were handed down to others. These were known as the Church Fathers, of which are Augustine, Ignatius, Basil, etc.

  What makes my interpretation any less valid than another's interpretation-quote by New Chapter

  Nothing. There is no reason to believe me or you in any interpretation. I think this is cool you confronted me on this question because this is what I use to confront Jehovah's witnesses with. What I tell them is that they are right. The Bible is an organization book. It is meant to be interpreted by a consensus of the church. I know that may sound strange to you coming from a distructive cult but it is how it is meant to be. You see, the Bible was written to be placed in the authority of the Church. I place my authority in the Church. Those individuals that wrote the Bible and those they taught after them gave them the concepts in how to teach others. That is a vague and short answer but if you want to learn more on this just write me. The idea is that everyone has their own interpretation. The hobo on the street to the minister preaching in the crystal cathedral with 10 thousand adherents. The Bible is just one component in the church. Did you not put your trust in the Jehovah's Witnesses theology? Did you not believe at one time they were the true church on earth and would lead you to salvation? Therefore you put your trust in their interpretions. You did not rely on your own. I follow this pattern yet I have believed the church to be elsewhere and the truth to be elsewhere.

  One does not have to study every Christian faith to conclude it's all false. One only needs to investigate the premise and the truths around us and decide if they hold up. When someone walks up and says, look you don't understand because no one has taught you, let me teach you, and shut down your rational brain---well alarm bells go off big time. CULT my rational brain screams. But your brain says 'listen to those that know better." CULT-quote from New Chapter

  All I can say is you need to have this awareness. Be careful. Be cautious. There is a great comfort in knowing that 2+2 equals 4. And there is a great comfort in verifying scientific evidence put to an experiment. Things in our natural world tested in empirical science give comfort. These things cannot be argued. They cannot be messed with. Christianity does not need to be studied. It needs to be experienced and sought after not analyzed or put to the test or hypothesized or theorized. That is the physical world we live in.

  Anyways, New Chapter...have you ever studied psychology. I was a major in psychology after I left the Wathtower. One thing I know is that animals behave differently after abuse.

  Is there any reason that a person after being severely beaten by religion would have side effects?

  Science tells us that people in concentration camps, war zones and abuse trauma suffer for long periods of time often changing behavour to compensate. Soldiers in concentration camps never seem to be the same once the return to normalcy.

  Heres is the big question for you. It seems like everyone here on this forum suffered from a huge amount of "spiritual" abuse. How is it any different? We were in a concentration camp! Where do we go? What happened?

  I think we were abused and treated unfairly. I think that we were made to believe in things we could not understand and now we believe in things we can understand, that is, science and what can be proven, because....nothing else can be proven and I have been fooled.

  Don't leave the Bible and religion because you were abused by it. Seek and you will find the answers. Be humble. Soften the heart.

  Wish you the best

  Peace

  Maksym
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  metatron

  Shamus, there are reputed to be over 5,000 patents that are classified as secret. The oil companies and banks own the Patent Office.

  However, I have faith in the internet as a means of exposure. The elite don't know what to do anymore. Just ask George Soros. He admitted as much.

  metatron
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  NewChapter

  Actually mak, I don't feel that I suffered spiritual abuse. But thanks for comparing me to an abused animal---quite interesting.

  I actually had an unusually good experience as a Witness. Good elders, good friends. There was pressure, yes, but most of it was internal because I believed in a judgmental sky daddy. I was not driven away from the WT. I looked into science and allowed my rational brain to talk to me, much against my will, but if I wanted to pursue truth, I had to let it take me where it would---instead of where I wanted to go.

  So don't assume that I and other atheists are wounded puppies. It's offensive. Perhaps your entire belief system is your way of dealing with the pain you have encountered in this life. Perhaps it is your way of dealing with the inevitablity of sickness and death. Perhaps it is your fear of being forgotten and becoming nothing but dust to ages to come. I'm sorry for you pain. People that are wounded make irrational choices---I understand that.

  but you need to have awareness. You need to be cautious and careful. It would be tragic if you spent your life in darkness and denial and missed out on all this life, your only life, has to offer. Tragic indeed. You may be the next Einstein, if you would just focus on reality instead of nonsense. Then we would all lose.

  Science is accumulative---this is true. But they teach the scientific method---which allows students to test the theories, AND EVEN disprove those theories as knowledge grows. Your theories have been tested and proven false.

  Don't assume to know anything about me. Don't be so arrogant to suggest that my disbelief was brought on by pain. You have a hypothesis in your head about people like me, and I have proven you wrong. Living with the freedom and clearness of thought that I have is something you would have to experience to understand. Don't throw rational thought away because it does not always bring you comfort.

  Oh and considering how very far off the mark you were with me, I gotta wonder how well you did in psychology.

  NC
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  maksym

  I did an A in philosophy, politics, science, and otherwise. I have a 4.0 in all my studies.

  It is very interesting to know that what people write here can be judged on many principles.

  It is no doubt that you were spiritually abused. You and many others are like a lost sheep.

  Can you accept the fact that you went into one relgion and came out athiest as being the ultimate scenario for truth? Why? Why one religion?

  This is stupid, it is like a person comparing a Ford to all other cars when one has only driven a Ford.

  New CHapter- my question to you is....have you only driven JW theology?

  Why not go elsewhere besides science.

  peace

  maksym
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  NewChapter

  I think you are quite arrogant to continue to make assumptions. But I will play, if only to show you that you how arrogant you truly have handled this situation with a stranger. Your assumptions are a great weakness.

  I attended the United Methodist church as a youngster.

  I went to a Catholic school for two years, which included many, many religion classes and masses.

  I attended United Church of Christ as a teen, where I went on retreats and became involved enough to help plan activities for youths.

  I attended countless bible studies and churches as an adult---mainly with Baptists and Pentacostals.

  I also played with Pagans for a while--and even tomorrow will attend a drum circle---not because I believe anything spiritual about it, but because they are fun and good people.

  I have a dear friend who is Wiccan and even attended some of those events. Again good people that don't concern themselves when I roll my eyes.

  I regularly listened to Christian radio, and studied every day with certain programs.

  On top of that, I did extensive reading from Christians trying to explain their brand of faith.

  Today I attend the Unitarian Universalist church, openly as an atheist, because frankly they don't care and I like structured community.

  And yes, I was one of Jehovah's Witnesses.

  I did not "turn" to science as though it was some kind of religion or belief system. I simply learned the tools I needed from science to think critically and reject all of these belief systems.

  My study of anthropology has also been enlightening. How small the world view of SOME Christians. The diversity of belief out there, the wide spread cultural differences makes me understand that this bronze age religion is not special in any way and really isn't all that impressive. Yet they held themselves up as higher than others and used their technology to subjugate other cultures and demonize other belief systems. In Jesus name, amen.

  Now I haven't looked deeply into Islam, simply because it's just another of the same--Christianity, Judaism, Islam. Close cousins.

  I have talked extensively with followers of Buddhism. Not a bad religion, kind of insightful. Not for me, but no real issues with it. I also have not looked into Hinduism or other eastern religions other than what I needed to learn in school. I do know a bit more about certain Native American beliefs.

  I think you were abused in some way and need religion to comfort you. There is no doubt that you have dealt with spiritual abuse, as you were a JW, and therefore have jumped into the arms of another religion to relieve your pain. But why do that? Why not give science and rational thought a chance? Can you accept the fact that your own insecurities and pain have led you to reject rational thought? Why, Why, Why just another religion?

  NC
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  cofty

  Most people who leave the Wathtower never go and investigate other Christian religions, or more importantly look toward DIRECTED studies of the Bible outside of what they were taught in the Watchtower. Have you done this? - Mak

  In my case I went to a church with strong local links to a bible college. I read systematic theologies and countless works by respected theologians. I had weekly meetings for a number of months with a local pastor who had a PHd in theology, to discuss doctrine and I learned about exegesis and hermenutics.

  Within a few years I knew more about christian doctrine and history than almost anybody else in the church and was deeply moved by the gospel - as opposed to the ransom. I became a christian and was re-baptised. I was invited to preach on a regular basis in my home church and other evangelical churches in the area.

  It took 9 years before I realised that, as Billy said above "the emperor had no clothes". It was a journey of at least another 4 or 5 years before I would describe myself as an atheist.

  Others may take a far more direct route but their destination is the same and no less based on reason.
• 

  NewChapter

  Cofty---are you telling me that you are not a bruised little puppy that is shying away from religion cuz you're hurting?

  NC
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  Phizzy

  "The throwing the baby out...." metaphor is not one of my favourites either, I do get its import, it is possible to quickly get to the position of feeling that one is an Atheist if you decide to base everything on reason, real proof and logic alone.

  If you say to yourself as I did, "I will no longer believe in anything, I will, perhaps, trust things to be true and correct if sufficient proof backs them, but I will not simply believe", then very quickly you are an Atheist, as the Bible has no provenance or proof that it is anything but the maunderings of men over 2000 years ago, and there is no evidence for any God.

  I like the label above "Agno-atheist" because it means that I am not taking a total rigid position that will not look at evidence, I like to consider all new ideas and new evidence, "as there are more things in heaven and earth than are dreamed of in my philosophy" to mangle Shakespeare.

  So, I have not thrown out the beautiful baby of "possibility", and I remain open-mided, but not so open that my brain has fallen out.
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  xchange

  Sigh.
  I suppose I need to chime in as well to debunk the myth that I limped like a perturbed sheep caught in a leg trap from one hellhole to another - according to a poster and probably a fair percentage of Christians.
  
  Should I first establish my educational pedigree to proffer a semblance of authority to the mix?
  
  My Story: How I Did It or How To Avoid ALL Hellholes
  by xchange
  
  
  I did my homework.
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  Crisis of Conscience

  Well said in the OP snare&racket.

  Now I just need to read through the rest of the thread.