I'm sorry I interupted you in your religious cermony. Carry on. - Sab
Sorry you are making no sense at all and I don't have the patience to work out what you are on about if you can't be arsed to explain.
Ambiguity is not a virtue. Bye!
Is Biblical Morality Situational, Based Upon the Arbitrary Whims of Yahweh?
by leavingwt 268 Replies latest jw friends
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cofty
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sabastious
Ambiguity is not a virtue.
Hey! I think LWT is a fine citizen.
-Sab
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mP
@knowsnothing
Rome was incredibly violent, perhaps more so than the Jewish framework you defend.
@mp
Im sorry while Rome was violent it was also more accepting and kind than the Jewish state. Just read the Bible, The jews kill, rape, murder anyone in their way. While Rome did kill many, they also let them live, if they didnt they wouldnt have had an empire. Rome let their subjects keep their gods, customs etc as long as they paid their taxes in subjection to Rome. The Jews never did this.
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@mP: obviously, you haven't read the account of David and Bathsheba's baby lately (or at all). Let me quote it for you, because it's pretty clear who was responsible for the death of the baby :
@GORWELL
2 Sam 12:14,15 (ESV):
"Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the LORD, the child who is born to you shall die. Then Nathan went to his house. And the LORD afflicted the child that Uriah’s wife bore to David, and he became sick." Other translations have it that God 'struck' the baby with an illness of some sort.
Now, this is the account that first greatly disturbed me and caused me to leave the JW's.
My question is this : if we were created initially as perfectly in God's image, and with all that entails, a sense of justice, love, mercy, a conscience etc etc, why does reading of this account and others like it disturb us so much? Why wouldn't we, by and large, go along with the account and deem God's actions as justified or moral? Why is our morality seemingly on a different level?
@MP
Firstly the simple fact is its much easier to accept that nature and the poor medical conditions and knowledge meant that a lot of babies died. You have failed to discredit this, not every event in the Bible has a super natural force behind it. To say Jehovah's justice required the baby to die, makes him worse imho. I personally would think it would be better to simply let David go, than come up with such a foul outcome.
EVEN THE PROPHETS ARENT SURE...
Prophets in the Bible like to make stuff up, thats a simple fact, which i will demonstrate using another passage about Davids life below.
THe scriptures below are narratives from two separate books of the same event in Davids life where a census was taken. Feel free to verify the context. THe simple fact is the prophets who wrote the text lived at different times and saw the pestilance after and came to different conclusions. One said Satan tricked David, the other said God changed his mind. What gives. Its quite clear they are just making stuff up.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/2sa/chapter_024.htm
1 And again the anger of Jehovah came to be hot against Israel, when one incited David against them, saying: “Go, take a count of Israel and Judah.” 2 So the king said to Jo´ab the chief of the military forces who was with him: “Move about, please, through all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Be´er-she´ba, and YOU men register the people, and I shall certainly know the number of the people.”
http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/1ch/chapter_021.htm
1 And Satan proceeded to stand up against Israel and to incite David to number Israel. 2 So David said to Jo´ab and the chiefs of the people: “Go, count Israel from Be´er-she´ba to Dan and bring it to me that I may know their number.” 3 But Jo´ab said: “May Jehovah add to his people a hundred times as many as they are. Do they not, O my lord the king, all of them belong to my lord as servants? Why does my lord seek this? Why should he become a cause of guilt to Israel?”
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talesin
Sab
You completely ignored GOD'S part in this test,,, you talked about the Dark One,,, but excuse me,,, there were TWO entities involved in this test.... not just the Dark One,,, but also the "God of Light",,,, to coin a term to match yours..............
where does GOD's responsibility lie in this test? It is not Satan who tested Job, but his own deity,,, God, or Jehovah, or whatever you choose to call it (again, not being sarcastic),,,
You are (deliberately, because you have no answer?) leaving 1/2 of the equation out of the debate, and completely side-stepping my question.
tal
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EntirelyPossible
If you stop and think you might learn something besides where my words seemingly contradict. There was a time when no life on this planet chose death over life.
Prove it. And while you are at it, show me the scripture you said exists talking about God choosing righteous genetics in Abraham.
That change, according to my beliefs of the Torah, was when Noah was selected to start a new world.
Prove it. And while you are at it, show me the scripture you said exists talking about God choosing righteous genetics in Abraham.
I do not have a date for it at this time. That selection process, just like dog breeders and grape breeders, created Aristotle when Greece set up walls around themselves for him to be born.
Well that's just stupid. First you claim the bible said god chooses genetics, failed to prove it, then you said Noah was a puppy and Abraham was fruit, now you are claiming the Greeks were somehow naturally selected to build walls so Aritstotle who, by the way, you erroneosly claimed invented logic, could be born.
Holy shit, dude, I honestly have rarely seen so much stupid wrapped in so little understanding with such a huge side order of WTF in a long time. Congrats. Congrats.
Logic is then required to bridge the gap.
If logic were a person, it would hang itself before it would hang out (get it, HANG out?) with you. And then have someone else shoot in it in the head.
Sab, since you CLEARLY have no desire to learn, be smarter, improve yourself or do anything that takes you out of your comfort zone, you have deemed worthy of mocking.
Henceforth, you get only tough love. Sack up, nut up or shut up.
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sabastious
6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. 7 The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?”
Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.”
8 Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.”
9 “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. 10 “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. 11 But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.”
12 The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.”
Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.
One of the main reasons that the Bible requires interpretation is becuase not very much information is given. This is because of the nature of the document of Job. It was originally meant to be spoken aloud. Whenever this is the case with an ancient document you will find incredibly broad concepts fit into just a few sentences.
The book says that Job was the greatest man among all the people of the East. According to custom good fortune was brought about by the blessings of God. A quick reading of the verbiage may lead one to believe that God gave handouts to Job. This was not the case as Eastern custom has God bringing forth good fortune to people who put forth the effort. This concept is expounded upon by the New Testament's "you are worth more than many sparrows." I have not ignored anything or anyone in my analysis of Job.
where does GOD's responsibility lie in this test?
God was approached by Satan and then he mentions Job as a man who shuns evil. God is rubbing Satan's face in the fact that this man is rebuking all that makes Satan the Devil. Did God know that Satan would challenge him to a battle of wits over Job's fate? Likely. However he also knew that Satan would eventually pull this and he knew this to be a time no greater than any to rebuke him even further. YHWH in the Bible is always pulling for us even from his broad celestial perspective. I don't put God out of the picture, but the scenario was created by Satan, not God. Job was about answering the question of what Critical Mass truly is to a human, which seems to be limitless given enough divine evolutionary refinements.
-Sab
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sabastious
Prove it. And while you are at it, show me the scripture you said exists talking about God choosing righteous genetics in Abraham.
If I ever successfully teach you something no one will ever know about it including me. I'm ok with that.
-Sab
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sabastious
Henceforth, you get only tough love. Sack up, nut up or shut up.
I think the appropriate response is make me.
-Sab
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sabastious
If one takes this account literally (and even symbolically), God is no more than a jealous, possessive tyrant, who only cares about itself, and will go to any lengths to prove its superiority to its main rival, Satan.
I don't think the story can go any other way in context with the rest of the OT. YHWH has went through a lot of effort to the point of Job. If he were to say, "That's too harsh" he would effectively be saying that humans actually don't serve God out of love, which is what it was all about: growing love. The Satan character doesn't lack the capacity to understand love which is why he is accuses Job of an unloving motive. He challenged the whole process and the challenge was met.
Again this is because of the unnatrual selection that YHWH was in the process of. It would be like a dog breeder who breeds for fast dogs being accused that his dogs could not win in a foot race.
-Sab
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james_woods
Again this is because of the unnatrual selection that YHWH was in the process of. It would be like a dog breeder who breeds for fast dogs being accused that his dogs could not win in a foot race.
Sab, I will send you a PM sometime tomorrow morning,
James