The Bible and Genetics

by sabastious 132 Replies latest watchtower bible

mP
SAB
mP: Why are you picking on snakes ? THe snake in gen 3 is not satan. Satan is not even mentioned in that chapter and i wonder if he is mentioned anywhere in Genesis itself.
SAB
See my post to JwFacts. Also the snake is a perfect allegory for more reasons than it's forked tongue. It's venom is also taken into consideration and it's slow process of which it eats it's prey alive and slowly digests it. However snakes are awesome and I got nothing against the real ones or even snake themes outside of the Bible. It's when they are projected astrally is when you should be afraid.
MP
You missed my point entirely. The only reason why you believe Snakes and their forked tongues represent lying is because you have been taught the Adam and Eve story. Visit a different culture that has not been contaminated by this story and your commentary is broken. Your reasoning is completely circular. Your comments also show that you fail to understand the role of messengers or angels in the Bible.
Snakes in the Bible are messengers of God!!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seraphim
A seraph (pl. seraphim; Hebrew: ????????? s?rafîm, singular ?????? saraf; Latin: seraphi[m], singular seraph[us]; Greek: σεραφε?μ) is a type of celestial or heavenly being in the Abrahamic religions.
Literally "burning ones", the word seraph is normally a synonym for serpents when used in the Hebrew Bible. A seminal passage in the Book of Isaiah (6.1-8) used the term to describe fiery six-winged beings that fly around God's throne singing "holy, holy, holy". This throne scene, with its triple invocation of holiness (a formula that came to be known as the trisagion), profoundly influenced subsequent theology, literature and art. Its influence is frequently seen in works depicting angels,heaven and apotheosis. Seraphs are mentioned as celestial beings in an influential Hellenistic work, the Book of Enoch, and the Book of Revelation. Tradition places seraphs in the fifth rank of ten in the Jewish angelic hierarchy and the highest rank in the Christian angelic hierarchy.
The snake that spoke to Eve, was a flying snake who in this case opened his big mouth. The role of snakes were originally as messengers of God and in order to perform their task of flying from heaven to earth and back, they needed wings.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiery_flying_serpent
- saiah 14:29: "Do not rejoice, all you of Philistia, because the rod that struck you is broken; for out of the serpent's roots will come a viper, and its offspring will be a fiery flying serpent."
- Isaiah 30:6: "The burden against the beasts of the South. Through a land of trouble and anguish, from which came the lioness and the lion, the viper and the fiery flying serpent, they will carry their riches on the backs of young donkeys, and their treasures on the humps of camels, to a people who shall not profit;"
References to "fiery serpents" lacking a mention of flight can be found in several places in the Hebrew Bible.
- Deuteronomy 8:15 "Who led thee through that great and terrible wilderness, wherein were fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought, where there was no water; who brought thee forth water out of the rock of flint;"
- Numbers 21:6-8 "(6) And the LORD sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died. (7) Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the LORD, and against thee; pray unto the LORD, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people. (8) And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live." This symbol, the Nehushtan, is similar to the ancient Greek Rod of Asklepios (frequently confused with the caduceus) and is frequently cited as an instance of the same archetype.
mP

SAB
Now that the languages were separate the humans were affectively separated. They then had to write up their own systems and agree on what they called truth. The Serpent's choice to unite the creation against YHWH meant that war was upon them. Finding out which civilization is the strongest is a fools errand and costs too many resources to complete. The best way to live with a neighbor is be their ally not their enemy. However the Serpent uses the warped version of Adamic Independence to maintain contention between lands on any level possible. Rivalry is encourged and collateral is placed on the table even if that means whole cities with woman and children.
Within this brutal system YHWH does not merely stand back in horror. He chooses a warrior and marks him in a way that strikes fear in his opponents as well as offers a medical benefit. Even today the Israeli Warrior is renowned for their fierce dedication and honor. Abram was the man, and Abraham was the Age he brought forth into the world. Abram exhibited the traits needed to not only lead an army, but settle political and social disputes as well. The majority of the Children of Light were misled, so YHWH created the safe haven of the Nation of Israel.
MP
Yahweh is the god of war and destruction in the OT. He even says it many times and labels himself as Jehovah of Armies. He never says he is Jehovah the Kind and Loving God. You have absolutely no scriptural bases for showing that God was horrified by the wrongness that he wintessed in the OT. Jehovah was the God of the priests in Judea, they were selfish pric ks and wanted an exclusive franchise in the God business in Israel. They didnt want to share the temple business with others and they wanted exclusive rights to advise the king. All the actions of the righteous priests in the OT can be explained as their selfish aim to eliminate the competition so they could grab all the money!
Its as simple as that.
sabastious

You missed my point entirely. The only reason why you believe Snakes and their forked tongues represent lying is because you have been taught the Adam and Eve story. Visit a different culture that has not been contaminated by this story and your commentary is broken. Your reasoning is completely circular. Your comments also show that you fail to understand the role of messengers or angels in the Bible.
Hello, mP. I do not believe that snakes represent the Devil across the board. However within the Biblical framework snakes represent the devil. This is always the case. You keep asking for scriptures when I do not believe the Bible contains scriptures. It contains stories and old laws, no scriptures. The Bible IS Scripture, but that is another topic altogether. What you call a contaminante is actually just a misapplication of the Bible Document in foreign lands. Snakes are not bad inside or outside of literature, I cannot stress this enough. Only within the Biblical Framework are snakes considered the Devil. This is proven beyond the shadow of a doubt in Revelation.
Revelation 12 - 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Revelation 20 - 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
Notice the word "that." This is like a pointer pointing to the beginning of the Bible where it speaks of a Serpent seducing Eve. The Dragon of Revelation IS the Serpent of Genesis according to the Biblical Cannon finalized at the Council of Trent. Any interpretation to the contrary would have to reject the cannonization and therefore rendering it fairly worthless. If Revelation is inaccurate then the canonization should never have been finalized. Does this make sense to you?
Yahweh is the god of war and destruction in the OT. He even says it many times and labels himself as Jehovah of Armies.
YHWH is a player in a Game of war. His pieces come through human evolution and his own tampering according to a ruleset. His values are righteous from the beginning, but like any official they have to make tough decisions that attempt to solve the most problems with any given shot. YHWH in the OT when asked his name by Moses replied, "I AM." Currently he was warlike because the world was warlike and required such leadership. He does not exhibit only warlike traits. Hagar and Ishmael are a perfect example of YHWH's original intention. He did not set out to be a war hero, but a Creator.
-Sab
mP

Hiho
SAB
Hello, mP. I do not believe that snakes represent the Devil across the board. However within the Biblical framework snakes represent the devil. This is always the case. You keep asking for scriptures when I do not believe the Bible contains scriptures. It contains stories and old laws, no scriptures. The Bible IS Scripture, but that is another topic altogether. What you call a contaminante is actually just a misapplication of the Bible Document in foreign lands. Snakes are not bad inside or outside of literature, I cannot stress this enough. Only within the Biblical Framework are snakes considered the Devil.
Revelation 12 - 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.
Revelation 20 - 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent , who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.
MP
Firstly Genesis refers to a literal snake, while the two revelation scriptures are metaphysical. An actual snake creature cannot also be a dragon.
The main reason that you are wrong is because the Book of Revelation is not a book of prophecy it is simply a book that contains the rantings of an angry Jew who sees Nero as a great opponent or satan of his fellow jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nero
The Sibylline Oracles, Book 5 and 8, written in the 2nd century, speak of Nero returning and bringing destruction. [191] Within Christian communities, these writings, along with others, [192] fueled the belief that Nero would return as the Antichrist. In 310, Lactantius wrote that Nero suddenly disappeared, and even the burial-place of that noxious wild beast was nowhere to be seen. This has led some persons of extravagant imagination to suppose that, having been conveyed to a distant region, he is still reserved alive; and to him they apply the Sibylline verses. [182]
In 422, Augustine of Hippo wrote about 2 Thessalonians 2:1–11, where he believed Paul mentioned the coming of the Antichrist. Though he rejects the theory, Augustine mentions that many Christians believed that Nero was the Antichrist or would return as the Antichrist. He wrote, so that in saying, "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work," [193] he alluded to Nero, whose deeds already seemed to be as the deeds of Antichrist. [161]
Some modern biblical scholars [194] [195] such as Delbert Hillers (Johns Hopkins University) of the American Schools of Oriental Research and the editors of the Oxford & Harper Collins Study Bibles, contend that the number 666 in the Book of Revelation is a code for Nero, [196] a view that is also supported in Roman Catholic Biblical commentaries. [197] [198]
Lastly the text that you show does not include the definitive article "the" which would be necessary if it meant the one and only opponent of God. Rather it says devil which means "opponent" or satan which also means "opponent". Translators should have translated and replaced the words devil and satan with opponent. If the text is referring to a "person" or "angel" it doesnt make sense to say
Revelation 20 - 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Fred, or Fred, and bound him for a thousand years.
where Fred is the Satan the devil.
soft+gentle

fascinating discussion going on here guys. I find myself agreeing and not agreeing with both of you - mP and sab. but have to dash out - I hope to be back later
OnTheWayOut

What the Bible is at it's core is scientific art. The word art is very important because being such demands the reader take as many angles as necessary to digest the material. It's a book written by the people and for the people. An ancient mostly secret bill of human rights.
I ain't really sure what the point of the opening post is, but I will comment anyway. That way, everyone can be upset with me.
People look at the Bible with the same nostalgia/romanticism that they look at things longed for from the past. "Remember when the iceman and the milkman came every day?" "Remember the fins on cars in the 50's?" (You can provide your own applicable nostalgia.)
It goes too far with the Bible. It becomes "great" literature, or Cofty's magic carpet ride (as in the comment on page 1). To maintain it's importance, people put "science" accuracy into the Bible that isn't there. You might as well say that it is accurate as long as it didn't say that the atom cannot be split.
Followers of the Bible have helped me understand followers of "Star Wars", "Star Trek", "The Hobbit", "Harry Potter" and "Doctor Who" (I love that stuff). But at least those people know that the fantasy they escape into is truly fantasy. Nerds learn how to speak Klingon and talk about how much honor the Klingons have. But Jesus people and Bible people go further into their fantasy and lose themselves.
If the Bible were just a piece of art from the past, that would be awesome. But as long as it's used as a tool to manipulate people, it's a book needing to be exposed as the art work of men and nothing more.
sabastious

Hello OTWO, this blog has nothing to do with nostalgia, but thank you for your observation. The painting in the OP is supposed to show that different perspectives to the same thing are important. Very little in our univserse is black and white (unless you are a rock). If we never had John Pitre's thoughts about his painting we would be forced to interpret it ourselves. This undoubtedly would require a concerted effort. I have never looked at the Bible this way until only a few months back. Before, I had only known about a rigid interpretation, or critique, of the book. This blog is my attempt to show that the Bible need not be a rigid framework at all while remaining intellectually honest. Storytelling was an ancient means of education even in a society that forbid it. It was first important to preserve morality so the scientists could really get going. Atheism didn't bring peace, religion did and atheism went from there, but through an epic and morally grey process. Which is exactly what the scientific story says in it's way.
If the Bible were just a piece of art from the past, that would be awesome. But as long as it's used as a tool to manipulate people, it's a book needing to be exposed as the art work of men and nothing more.
Science has been used to manipulate people ever since the inception of the scientific method. However to blame the tool is just an act of short sightedness. The man (or human brain) is the one and only blame. Christopher Hitchens was very wrong when he said, "I have no choice." When he said that the Serpent's ears perked right up. "Oh? You have no choice? Well then, I'll just move in right now and make them for you. Let's make a tower of Babel." Every person has the ability to give into the human ego or not. Once you do, the Serpent has your talents and reality slowly starts to blur until you don't even know what a rainbow is anymore because you are so far from the Light that made the human version of science possible in the first place.
-Sab
sabastious

The main reason that you are wrong is because the Book of Revelation is not a book of prophecy it is simply a book that contains the rantings of an angry Jew who sees Nero as a great opponent or satan of his fellow jews.
If every person in this thread wrote an essay about a certain topic and then those essays were put in a single document and approved by a council then their original purposes become second to the purpose of the canonization. This blog is about the Bible as a whole, not the Bible as accepted books and unaccepted books. What makes a book an accepted book in the Bible is inclusion in the Bible. The people putting the books together knew that they had original purposes. The fact that Revelation was placed at the end of the Bible is very significant. The 12th chapter connecting the Genesis Serpent to it's Dragon is also highly significant. If you displace Revelation from the Bible and interpret it stand alone it will undoubtedly conflict with the narrative that the Bible has.
mP, we have taken different approaches at the book and that's perfectly fine. That's what this thread is about. My logical rule, however, is that the Bible is treated as a cannon because that was it's original purpose when finalized at the Council of Trent by the Roman Catholic Church. As a book of stories, this turns the Bible into a linear narrative. It's this narrative that I believe was created, by fusing different stand alone books, that is the Bible's most imporant trait.
-Sab
sabastious

fascinating discussion going on here guys. I find myself agreeing and not agreeing with both of you - mP and sab. but have to dash out - I hope to be back later
Hello S+G. This is one of the reasons I started the thread/blog. I don't want to be right, but provide a perspective without obstruction. Thanks for painting that clearly.
-Sab
cofty

Science has been used to manipulate people ever since the inception of the scientific method.
How so?

The Bible and Genetics

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