It would be more accurate to state, "Of the Americans polled, this many percent believed or didn't believe _________. "
Hostile to atheists
by d 281 Replies latest members politics
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NewChapter
Okay FHN---highly educated people should not use polls. I don't know what you think the alternative should be for collecting data, but apparently polls are not it. Perhaps we should just go with our gut on these things---I don't know. Dawkins is a naive fool---he used a poll to discuss a point. Actually many scientists are naive fools---as polls are often a means of collecting data. Anthropologists are taught to formulate polls to collect data about a group of people.
In fact, everything that Dawkins or even I have said is invalidated because we have quoted a poll.
I'm not sure why you can't let go of the poll thing----it is not a perfect system----but it is a system that has proven quite useful---for fools and sensationalists anyway. Much better is to go by our limited experience and feelings when determining the larger picture.
NC
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NewChapter
"Of the Americans polled, this many percent believed or didn't believe _________.
Oh---okay. It's a semantics issue then. Well it is kind of an unspoken assumption that a poll covers only the people polled---and an effort to take a cross section of the group so that the results are indicative of the whole----but if it is just semantics then. . .
Of Americans polled, 40% do not believe in evolution.
There, now perhaps it can be discussed past this point---or maybe not---polls are useless and for the naive.
NC
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FlyingHighNow
In fact, everything that Dawkins or even I have said is invalidated because we have quoted a poll.
Everything? Come on.
It's not the poll thing. It's the sweeping blame on "religion for holding the masses in utter ignorance." It might make more sense for you to say, "Well, I believe that extreme fundmentalism is responsible for some Americans thinking the earth is less than 10,000 years old. That deeply bothers me."
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NewChapter
A few days ago, Tennesee passed a bill requiring public schools to teach the 'controversy' over evolution. This is an effort to support creationism in the schools, and will inevitably undermine students' attitude toward science---I don't suppose Tennessee has that many people that disbelieve evolution. It would be naive to look at the numbers to determine how many Americans think this way---yet they are making quite a bit of progress.
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NewChapter
Semantics again. You don't like how I state my arguments. You don't like that I cite polls. What else, other than religion, has impeded scientific growth? I can't think of anything.
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FlyingHighNow
Polls are not completely useless. There are times when it is obvious they cannot be accurate. The Neilsen ratings for television, take them for example, they have millions, maybe billions of dollars riding on their accuracy. But they sometimes cause very watched, very popular shows to be canceled. Then people start campaigns and petitions to save the shows. Polls have some value. But they are not always accurate or representitive of all Americans. No, it doesn't mean everything Dawkins or you say is wrong.
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still thinking
I kind of have to agree with Flyinghigh
Theistic evolution
This view is generally accepted by major Christian churches, including the Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church and some mainline Protestant denominations; virtually all Jewish denominations; and other religious groups that lack a literalist stance concerning some holy scriptures. Various biblical literalists have accepted or noted openness to this stance, including theologian B.B. Warfield and evangelist Billy Graham.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theistic_evolution
Catholic Church and evolution
Since the publication of Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species in 1859, the attitude of the Catholic Church on the theory of evolution has slowly been refined. For about 100 years, there was no authoritative pronouncement on the subject. By 1950, Pope Pius XII agreed to the academic freedom to study the scientific implications of evolution, so long as Catholic dogma is not violated. [ 1 ] Today [update] , the Church's unofficial position is an example of theistic evolution, also known as evolutionary creation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_and_evolution Sorry for all the cut and paste....but....it must primarily be the fundamentalist churches that make up the 40%. Is america 40% fundamentalist?
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FlyingHighNow
New Chapter, try not to make inaccurate, sweeping statements. That's all. We all have to push ourselves to do that. Me included.
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NewChapter
And yet---the poll was only one piece of information among much information that was being used to frame a concern. Dawkins didn't use the poll as the basis of his discussion, he cited it as one piece of support. So are you focusing on this one thing, or the overall message? He is naive to use this bit of knowledge, in context, along with a lot of other data, to reinforce his argument, and suddenly he is a sensationalist. Let me again present some of the other data, since you have focused only on the poll comment and none of the other stuff.
Tennessee, FIVE DAYS AGO, passed a law requiring that public schools teach there is valid controversy against evolution. There is no valid controversy.
New Hampshire is currently passing through a law that FORCES doctors to lie to their patients and tell them that abortion increases the risk of breast cancer. (religiously motivated anti-science if I ever heard of such)
In Arizona, doctors can now withhold information or even LIE to pregnant patients if giving them information could lead to the choice to have an abortion---even if the mother's life and health are on the line---they can withhold this critical information or lie about it. (Again, religion holding people in ignorance and hijacking public policy)
In Oklahoma bills passed to outlaw sharia law and using fetuses to flavor food. (gag---help me gag---will religious people stop at nothing?)
I stand by my statement that religion holds people in ignorance. Perhaps your religion does not---but religion certainly does.
NC