non believers what if your wrong ?

by unstopableravens 546 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    John mentiones this at a different point in his gospel ( the synoptics leave it to the end with the last supper, John inserts it after the feeding of the multitudes) so we must ask ourselves why does John do that?

    My theory is that the core group wanted to make it look at though they entered a special covenant with Christ, a covenant that most Jews would refuse to enter because of the appalling nature of the ritual. They had to choose something so distastful, that most would walk away, in order to give the perception of their favored position with Christ. That's why he would do that. You typical Jew was not going to sign on for it. It didn't happen, because it goes against what we know Christ to be.

    Think about ancient Egypt. Some Egyptians DID put lamb's blood on their door posts, but for most Egyptians this would have been blashphemous so they didn't do it. The bible writers simply chose a ritual that would be so repulsive to the Jews that they would not take part in it, and so made themselves look chosen and in a covenant. The ritual never actually happened. That was written by lying scribes.

  • tec
    tec

    That part of the bible is wrong. The entire flesh/blood ritual was completely out of line with all of scripture, and all that we know of Jesus. We have to judge all scripture according to Jesus. Eating human flesh and drinking human blood was never even hinted at. We have

    a natural aversion to doing such. It is an inherently earthly idea, and has nothing to do with spiritual. Very fleshly, if you will. But why would they write such a thing, since it was so completely out of line with Jesus's personality?

    I think your understanding is very earthly, very fleshly, yes.

    manna from heaven... eating this bread... to keep the israelites alive in the desert and wilderness

    Christ... eating from Him - the TRUE manna... giving life to those who eat of him.

    Same as those who "eat from" the Tree of life... have life.

    Well, I think the above explains it well. There was always a power struggle among the disciples. Who is closer to Christ? Who will sit at the left and right hand? Who has the authority to cast out demons? Christ was always trying to correct this, but they kept falling

    back to the old ways of jostling for prestige.

    Some of them, perhaps... though in the case between the two brothers, it was the mother who was vying for a position for her sons.

    Of course the Jews would walk away when cannibalism was introduced. It was appalling to them.

    When they thought cannibalism was introduced, yes. Because like yours above, that understanding was earthly/fleshly... not spiritual, as Christ said his words WERE.

    But did Jesus really say that to the crowd, or was it later reported to make the core group look more faithful? I think the second option, because the way Jesus handled the new and shocking teaching was not in line with his teacher personality. He just dumped it on them! He would not have done that, especially knowing the prohibition on eating blood. He would have reasoned with them. He would not have asked them to just take his word for it. He may have said, 'you heard it was written that you must not consume blood, but I say to you . . ."

    A lot of his teachings were 'dumped' on people, and explained to his disciples later. People could have asked him to clarify, to explain... instead of just walking away. And he did reason with them. Such as with using the manna as metaphor; such as stating that his words were of the spirit, and not of the flesh. They did not accept such reasoning.

    So looking to Christ, rather than the scriptures, this does not jive. Christ didn't act like that. Lying scribes later added that bit to make themselves look more faithful, and to make it look like they were a part of a convenant that others walked away from. So today, when people decline because they know Christ and know he would not have commanded such a thing, those that go with the lying scribes can compare them to those that walked away in Jesus's day.

    You are certainly entitled to believe and follow... or not... as you choose. I cannot agree, as I have been led to understand differently. Of course you are playing a parody, but my answer to anyone would be the same.

    No. That doesn't flush with my understanding of Christ, therefore, the bible is wrong on that.

    And what makes your understanding of Christ correct? (this is a question, so do not jump to the conclusion that I am throwing something in your face, please)

    As well, you did not answer my question, but have gone off on this tangent.

    Did you pass the bread and wine by because of these reasons you are stating above... or did you pass the bread and wine by because the WTS taught you to do so, and told you that it was right?

    Peace,

    tammy

  • tec
    tec

    My theory is that the core group wanted to make it look at though they entered a special covenant with Christ, a covenant that most Jews would refuse to enter because of the appalling nature of the ritual. They had to choose something so distastful, that most would walk

    away, in order to give the perception of their favored position with Christ. That's why he would do that. You typical Jew was not going to sign on for it. It didn't happen, because it goes against what we know Christ to be.

    This makes no sense to me. Why would those same people continue to preach Christ, seeking to bring others TO Christ (even to the point of their own death)... if in reality they wanted most people to walk away so their position could be favored? Favored with what... torture, shunning, casting out of the synogagues, beatings, executions?

    Peace,

    tammy

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    Note that Peter did NOT say your fleash and blood give eternal life, He said You have the WORDS of eternal life.

    Exactly. Jesus was THE WORD, and so taking of his flesh was symbolic to taking of his word. Jesus would never institute a ritual that mimicked cannabolism. The writers just pushed that point to its repulsive limit to make it seem that they were more faithful and in a covenant with him, while others that could not stomach such a teaching walked away. I don't think ever taught it that way. It came later.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    No NT book or letter was written bya scribe and that nowhere is it mentioned that the "last supper" or euchrist celebration is the ACTUAL eating of flesh and drinking of blood, the symbolisim is always made clear, as per Paul in 1Corinthians in which he repeats what may be oldest Christian creed:

    The Lord’s Supper

    23 For ( AA ) I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that ( AB ) the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread; 24 and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, “This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me.” 25 In the same way He took ( AC ) the cup also after supper, saying, “This cup is the ( AD ) new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death ( AE ) until He comes.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Exactly. Jesus was THE WORD, and so taking of his flesh was symbolic to taking of his word. Jesus would never institute a ritual that mimicked cannabolism. The writers just pushed that point to its repulsive limit to make it seem that they were more faithful and in a covenant with him, while others that could not stomach such a teaching walked away. I don't think ever taught it that way. It came later.

    Yes, they walked away because they did NOT understand what Jesus was saying about hiim being the "mana of God".

    Not because the writer of John has some aggenda but because they did NOT want to beleive so they believed incorrectly.

    Those that knew Jesus MUST have meant soemthing else stayed and understood, those that "heard what they wanted to hear" left because he gave them the perfect excuse to leave.

    To eat His flesh and drink his blood is to LIVE off HIM, His Love, His Word, His spirit.

    The writer makes that clear, at least to me anyways...

    There is no idication that there was some ulterior motive on the part of the writer to show that the apostles were anything but the chosen ones because they had faith in Christ, even when his teachinsg seemed "strange".

    It is quite obivous that was his intention, he says it blatantly when Jesus says:

    Only those that God has given to Him(Jesus) are His but even then, one is the devil...

  • tec
    tec

    When he comes into his kingdom, jesus turns into a murderer. Tec, you support him in this. Or, does this part not resonate w you?

    It is funny that you quote Matt25:31-41, because those are the verses that show Christ bringing people into the kingdom based on their deeds... regardless of their various beliefs.

    Those people who did things that were not of love; these cannot enter the kingdom.

    I think because by their deeds they show that they would destroy. So they are left outside. Would you allow wolves to enter a sheep-pen?

    Here is another: luke19:27 But as for these enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and slaughter them in my presence.'
    So, is jesus a murderer, or not? Do you support his murdering his 'enemies', or not?

    A parable. So one would need to test it against the rest of Christ's teachings, against love, and if one wanted to know the TRUTH... go to the Truth, and ask Him what he meant.

    Christ is no murderer. He is the one who GIVES life. He is the one who forgives. (forgive them father for they know not what they do)

    Peace,

    tammy

  • snare&racket
    snare&racket

    " it seems that many who were jw for so many years attach jehovah/yahweh with the watchtower and since the wt is wrong than god does not exist."

    In all sincerity.... I am yet to meet someone here with this scenario. With the greatest respect can you name one? If you can't may I humbly ask why that is and what the reason may be?

    please dont ignore this reply, I think this is a very important issue

    snare x

    ps good thread

  • NewChapter
    NewChapter

    You are certainly entitled to believe and follow... or not... as you choose. I cannot agree, as I have been led to understand differently. Of course you are playing a parody, but my answer to anyone would be the same.

    Now what makes you think this is parody? How do you know that I didn't reason exactly like this when I was a pre-dub Christian? Anyway---

    Some of the bible was written by lying scribes. Jesus was the word, and he used metaphor. Sure, the disciples went on to preach, but that favored position was still maintained, because now they were the teachers. You see? The first step is to cull the herd, or at least give the perception that they did, by claiming that a truly repulsive teaching was introduced. It makes them look good, and like they stuck with the master even when what he said was disgusting. Only he never said it, because this is all about perception. Jesus would never have said such a thing. They took a metaphor and expanded on it, making them look particularly special. Now they wished to teach it and come from a place of authority. So they get their prestige, the dynamic is changed, they are the teachers, and people are following their teaching----while they can look ultra faithful by claiming that some willfully walked away, but not them!

    It worked well. That's why one of your first questions was did I partake. You use that as a measuring stick, when Jesus said following his teachings was the measure. It was later that the stick was changed. It is still used today. Those that partake--those that don't. Those that partake accept Jesus, those that don't pass. Same reasoning the lying scribes used.

    Those that are paying attention to the Word may choose to pass on ritualistic, symbolic cannibalism, because they KNOW that is not what Jesus would ask of them. People only need to look to Christ to sort it all out. Christ would not ask us to kill or hurt anyone, and he would not ask us to take part in cannibalistic rituals--even symbolically. Even as he would not ask us to kill---even symbolicaly.

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    What does jesus do w the ones who don't want him to be their king, if not kill them, like he said?

    S

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit