If There was a Cosmic Pain meter...

by cofty 106 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  bohm

  Can't blame someone else for the suffering man causes, when man does not listen or follow the teachings that would help to end that suffering (including that of the golden rule). At that point, the only person left to blame is the individuals causing the suffering (or turning a blind eye to the suffering when you could do something to alleviate it)

  Okay a few things:

  • "man" does not cause suffering, some people cause suffering to other people. We are all allways in a position to do something to prevent it or not. God does not. Question: Under what circumstances is it okay to allow someone to get raped? I say none.
  • Much suffering is not caused by humans but germs, disease, aging, natural disasters etc. Question again is: When is it okay to watch someone drown when you can lift them out of the water with ease? God answer that question every day...
  • Okay so a person follows the golden rule all her life and then at age 30 gets burned for witchcraft. God, apparently, sit on his trone and goes: "well, cant blame me, i told them the golden rule and as long as some of them dont follow it, i shouldnt do anything!"
  • We blame people all the time for causing other people to suffer, infact we call them criminals and have special places to them. Obviously the reasoning which is good enough for god to is not good enough for us to just sit idle by and contemplate that since we told the victims and murderes alike what to do: "dont murder & be nice", it is not our place to intervene.
• 

  tec

  Let's suppose we all followed Christ's Law, and mitigated suffering as much as humanly possible.

  If we did our end, God might well act as to the rest. (He does make such a promise in psalms, or isaiah, or one of the books of the prophets) But we don't.

  That being said... a living universe moves and shifts; that is how physical life is possible, right? But when the time comes that we are no longer trapped in the flesh (spirit within vessels of flesh)... and instead are 'like' the angels... then even these events will not matter; or perhaps we will have the 'know-how' on how to stop such an event before it harms people in its path. (None of this last bit is something that I can demonstrate, or even know more than just a small part. But Cofty is asking on the determination of a personal God, and so I would look to Christ for this. Christ could call someone back from death; heal those who were ill; and calm storms. He also rose in the flesh, and spirit... so if one is going to blame his God, then one has to be prepared for such answers as well)

  Peace to you,

  tammy
• 

  tec

  Tammy - I don't care that you want to change the question to one that is less damaging to the image of your impotent god. In fact I expect you to do so.

  If you want an answer to the question that you posed, then the answer is: Neither.

  Peace,

  tammy
• 

  cofty

  If we did our end, God might well act as to the rest.

  Perhaps the most pathetic answer to the question of evil in the history of apologetics.

  You are such an enigma. You go on endlessly about love and yet you worship a petulant child.
• 

  bohm

  Okay on to Knowsnothing arguments:

  Why does God allowing pain constitute a judgment against him?

  The other day, i watched a baby get cooked in an overheated car. It screamed and screamed and then it died. I could have broken the window and prevented it, but i didnt. Does that change your oppinion of me in any way? well god does that all the damn time.

  What about is it about suffering that merits condemning God?

  Then later that evening, i noticed my neighbour was raping a child, i could see it happend from my bedroom window. But i didnt call the police, i just let him do it. Does that somehow change your oppinion of me? i didnt cause any pain, "man" did. infact, i told him the other day: "dont hurt other people". Doesnt that justificy my inaction?

  What if there is purpose to the suffering, in the grand scheme of things?

  Thats what im thinking, the baby might be better of cooked -- it might provide a real growth experience for the mom! or what about the child, ofcourse i think my neighbour stabbed him and hid the body in the woods, but I bet the parents will get something out of it. How about you? if you got cancer, wouldnt you be thrilled to experience that aspect of gods plan?

  The 'meter' you propose is something subjective. How can you accurately measure pain/suffering?

  yah, perhaps the child that god raped was having lots of fun. On one hand you can give a child an icecream, and on the other hand, you can boil it alive. Since you cant measure pain exactly those two things must be morally equivalent.

  BTW. Your name is very apt, as in why on earth would someone be asking these questions?!?!

  (updated).
• 

  Knowsnothing

  The other day, i watched a baby get cooked in an overheated car.

  Where is the mother or father? Aren't they responsible? WTF kind of stupid parents are those?

  Does that change your oppinion of me in any way? well god does that all the damn time.

  You aren't god, though. Since you are human, and you are capable of ending the suffering, I would expect you to do it. The thing is, so would God. It is your choice.

  Then later that evening, i noticed my neighbour was raping a child, i could see it happend from my bedroom window. But i didnt call the police, i just let him do it. Does that somehow change your oppinion of me? i didnt cause any pain, "man" did. infact, i told him the other day: "dont hurt other people". Doesnt that justificy my inaction?

  I understand your comparison. Here is the deal. You as a free moral agent can choose to do whatever you like. It's your choice really. God, as the ultimate arbiter, allows you to be God for a moment. He allows you to choose. If you, as a human, allowed that child to be raped, you have chosen.

  Thats what im thinking, the baby might be better of cooked -- it might provide a real growth experience for the mom! or what about the child, ofcourse i think my neighbour stabbed him and hid the body in the woods, but I bet the parents will get something out of it. How about you? if you got cancer, wouldnt you be thrilled to experience that aspect of gods plan?

  I think you are being a bit narrow in your view. It all seems bad now, it all seems shit. At the end of the day, if it is part of his plan, there is nothing you can do about it. The suffering will continue for as long as he allows, to show how inept we are. We want our day as God? We have it. Yet, we are incapable of the many things that could use remedy. The learning experience would be to show us, in no uncertain terms, how horrible we truly are capable of being. Yet, we wish to somehow be above our mere human existence. We wish and pretend to be God.

  Why not now? Why is God such a party-pooper? I want it now. Don't you see? The ghastliest of tortures, of sufferings, is temporary. No matter how bad it gets, it has an end.

  Would I be thrilled about suffering now? No. Obviously not. If god is real and true, and his promises are true as well, isn't waiting out the temporary suffering here all the worthwhile?

  yah, perhaps the child that god raped was having lots of fun. On one hand you can give a child an icecream, and on the other hand, you can boil it alive. Since you cant measure pain exactly those two things must be morally equivalent.

  Morals without God are subjective. You can't claim anything is good or bad. It's just your opinion, elevated by the majority. Morals are established by the majority, in your world. Might makes right.

  BTW. Your name is very apt, as in why on earth would someone be asking these questions?!?!

  I love your condescending form.
• 

  kassad84

  hi tec, your answers are encouraging.
• 

  Sulla

  Just got to point out sullas argument from the last page. In particular the explanation that if god prevented suffering --as in stopping a rape-- that would somehow open god up to the awfull possibility someone will ask him to iron his shirt; and god, apparently not the kind of guy who capable of taking things on a case-by-case basis, view it as two options:

  1) prevent rapes, potentially iron shirts.

  2) allow rape, do not iron shirt.

  And option two is apparently the better.

  I've thought you to be so much better than this, bohm. Perhaps you really are better than this and are just making a bad-faith argument. In any case, it should be obvious that a Cofty-style argument -- there exists suffering that a kind and omnipotent God could prevent and does not, therefore a kind and omnipotent God does not exist -- really does unravel itself to the argument that there exists inconvenience that a kind and omnipotent God could prevent ...

  In other words, and since Cofty wants to suppose we have a pain-o-meter, we might be able to rank many types of suffering on a scale from worst to least. Mutilation is worse than rape, but rape plus mutilation is worse than mutilation alone but sexual mutilation is worse than eyeball mutilation unless you need your eyeballs to work in which case it's roughly equal. Or something. And on our scale, my wrinkled shirt is clearly very close to the bottom of the suffering scale.

  But that's not Cofty's point. His point is that the scale does not read zero. So long as there is one goddam wrinkled shirt in the goddam universe, Cofty's scale will be stubbornly stuck at some positive number, making his point that a kind and omnipotent God must not exist.

  My response doesn't minimize the real questions of suffering, but it does minimize the hollow syllogism Cofty is attempting. Indeed, the only answer that is useful is the one that goes back to the story of the Temptation. The Devil taunts Jesus with Cofty's argument: If you're God, feed the hungry people. All of 'em. And the answer then is the same one now: that's not what's wrong with us. Suffering is the symptom of a much more profound disease. The more profound disease does not have the sort of quick fix that, say, turning stones into bread can achieve.

  But, were you to engage that line of thought, you would be agruing in good faith. And it's more fun to shout, "Fail!" So, given those options...
• 

  insearchoftruth4

  I'm an optimist. If There is a Cosmic Pain meter, Then common sense, mankind should have a Cosmic Relief meter. With all the highs and lows of this life, I hope to have a good opinion about God before I die....
• 

  Aussie Oz

  Personally i position myself as Deist

  i think god for want of a better word, is off on the far side of the galaxy playing pool and screwing as many sexy under godesses as he likes.

  Oz