Thoughts on the new AAWA video and other things!!

by iamwhoiam 154 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “I'd be interested to hear how you think a video will reduce the abuse without ending it.”

  Simon,

  First, I don’t think a video will measurably reduce any abuse.

  But I do think sufficient exposure could push Watchtower to reinvent its shunning program by changing its doctrinal view of some biblical texts so that consequences of “sin” result in dissassociative outcomes similar to excommunication practiced by the Catholic Church.

  Essentially, this would be a consequent where an individual is judged to have metaphysically placed themselves outside “the body of Christ” but without social consequences.

  In my view, one of AAWA’s aims is to ratchet up exposure. Whether it’ll be successful is yet to be seen. But it’s worth a try, and from what I see volunteers are still lining up to help.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  Simon

  I think the video is aimed at reducing the abuse of Watchtower’s shunning program

  First, I don’t think a video will measurably reduce any abuse

  So to be clear in my understanding, you think the aim of the video is to reduce the abuse but don't believe that it will really be effective?

  But I do think sufficient exposure could push Watchtower to reinvent its shunning program ...

  This comes full circle back to the elephant in the room: sufficient exposure can never be obtained because there are not enough people who will ever be interested. The WTS is a minority sect that people in general and the mainstream media only have a cursory interest in at best. It would take sustained scrutiny and pressure over a long period to make them chose to change. Their base (America) simply doesn't have that media attention span.

  Even with a global attention-whore super-star fuck-up like Micheal Jackson involved ... it never really catches the publics attention other than as a footnote in a glossy magazine.
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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “Marvin: Can a punk like you understand or are you incapable of comprehending?

  “Q: Have I just insulted you?”

  Simon,

  Not necessarily.

  Perhaps there is a fundamental difference between us.

  - I use words. It’s what I do for a living, among other things.

  - I use logic. It’s what I do for a living, among other things.

  When I assert someone is a punk I’m saying they are immature. That’s what the word means.

  When I make an assertion I do not consider it any way issued as insult so long as it’s said objectively, meaning I can demonstrate sufficient evidence for the usage.

  In the case above, were you to say what you do I’d ask that you demonstrate I’m immature with sufficient evidence. If you show it then I have reason to think you were offering a genuine observation. If you can’t then I’d be left with reason to presume you intended insult.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  james_woods

  In the case above, were you to say what you do I’d ask that you demonstrate I’m immature with sufficient evidence.

  Would the plain posted evidence of manifest stubbornness (to the extreme) over the past few days be evidence?

  It is plenty of evidence for me.

  Sometimes maturity is just letting go of something when it has been over and dead for hours or even days.
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  Marvin Shilmer

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  “Not delusional to think that change won't happen I agree. But maybe delusional to think that the change will be for the better.”

  Simon,

  That’s a point well stated.

  Watchtower changes a lot. It’s nearly like an immature leaf in springtime flittering in the wind. If it’s a given that Watchtower will continue to change then I think AAWA’s initiative is to help that change occur in a positive direction.

  I don’t see much harm in the effort, and I see lots of benefit whether it’s successful or not. I see even more benefit if it is successful.

  I’m compelled to add, though, that any positive change forced upon Watchtower will not be a result of AAWA alone. If AAWA plays any role in such a change it would only be one initiative standing on the shoulders of many other individuals and groups. Like JWN for instance. If nothing else JWN has provided a extensive and ongoing brain-storming session. But I think it goes much further than that. That’s one reason I still participate here.

  Marvin Shilmer
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  Simon

  Sorry, claiming "good" dictionary definitions doesn't cut it with me and saying you are different because you use "words and logic" (I presume the implication is 'better') just comes across as arrogance.

  Words are meant to be a tool to communicate and I think I know exactly the line you are walking to make people feel insulted without 'technically' insulting them.

  Good show. Bravo. Clap clap clap.

  Whether it shows better mastery of words and logic or not, it looks and sounds like an insult IMO.
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  Simon

  If it’s a given that Watchtower will continue to change then I think AAWA’s initiative is to help that change occur in a positive direction.

  I don’t see much harm in the effort, and I see lots of benefit whether it’s successful or not. I see even more benefit if it is successful.

  Isn't there also a risk that external pressure can also easily be the catalyst for more hard-line positions to be taken?

  If I ran the WTS and there was an anti-WTS group? I'd be all over that persecution complex like you wouldn't believe ...
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  Las Malvinas son Argentinas

  It's almost as if he's doing this on purpose in order to get the thread locked so he can go back to his AAWA buddies and say "See? They're locking down all pro-AAWA discussion at JWN!"
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  Satanus

  Agent provocateur.

  S
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  Vidiot

  Simon - "Isn't there also a risk that external pressure can also easily be the catalyst for more hard-line positions to be taken?"

  It's not a risk.

  It's a virtual certainty.

  And that harder line can't help but push even more of the R&F away from the Org.

  Progressive reform isn't possible at this point; if it were, they arguably wouldn't be Jehovah's Witnesses.