Here is my two-pence worth:
From what I've seen the only way the WTS has ever really been forced to change is out of expediency. One example being of course the Bulgaria case which seemed to move them to stop disfellowshipping those choosing to have a blood transfusion. Although the Raymond Franz incident caused them some embarrassment, I don't think it really made much difference to the way they operated - neither did the UN involvement scandal either.
However, there are two areas I can think of where it is possible to weaken their grip. Firstly, in terms of possible future converts from among those who have never had WTS conditioning via a JW family background. Secondly, those with a JW background who have doubts about the WTS and are willing to hear what others have to say via the internet and even ignore some of what the GB command them to do. With regards to the first category, bad publicity for the WTS is I think the most effective as it will tend to make members of the public less receptive to the JW preaching. In the second category, the vast number of forums (such as this), blogs and other information sharing websites as well as videos freely available at such places as youtube provide a huge wall of resistance against the WTS.
I think the word 'education' is key here. Peaceful public protests may help to raise awareness in some cases, but I personally don't think picketing kingdom halls and assemblies is the answer - in fact I think they tend to reinforce in the minds of many JWs the bad image the WTS portrays concerning 'opposers' and 'apostates'. What Simon said about consumers is spot on; each JW is part of a collective whole that keeps the organization alive, 'the world' doesn't.
We have to be realistic when it comes to the WTS. Even if some criminal activity were discovered at HQ and heralded in the media, I think there would still be many JWs who would be crying "Lies! Lies!" or "Jehovah's organization is under attack from Satan and his cohorts!"
If the men in charge at the WTS can get away with it the 'end' could stretch for several more decades, so I don't believe the WTS is going to disappear overnight as many no doubt wish it would.
Having said all of this, I applaud any peaceful and sensible efforts to confront the beast that is the WTS and continually keep it on its toes!
Thoughts on the new AAWA video and other things!!
by iamwhoiam 154 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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JWB
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gingerbread
I couldn't agree more! - Satanus & Las Malvinas
The ongoing "opinion-a-tor" on this thread obviously gets paid by the word at his day job. "A legend in his own mind"
As we say in my part of the country - Arguing with that kinda person is like wrestling a pig. The pig has a blast and you wind up covered with mud and hog sh!t.
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james_woods
Although the Raymond Franz incident caused them some embarrassment, I don't think it really made much difference to the way they operated - neither did the UN involvement scandal either.
You could make a very credible argument that after both of these incidents, the Watchtower society become much more hard-core in their choice of rules and enforcement.
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Marvin Shilmer
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“When did that happen? Is it in the modern era? I'm not interested in any ancient "when there were 30 of them" type things, that's just small-group dynamics.”
Simon,
I’ve researched and written to document the huge schism Watchtower endured and that I spoke of.
If you want to learn more about this under-reported episode in Watchtower history, for starters see: Watchtower — emergence of the business end available at: http://marvinshilmer.blogspot.com/2011/08/watchtower-emergence-of-business-end.html
It occurred in the 1920s and took more than a decade to recover from.
“Exactly. You need to convince them that the cost-benefit analysis makes sense.”
From what I gather, that’s a big part of AAWA’s strategy.
Marvin Shilmer
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Marvin Shilmer
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“This comes full circle back to the elephant in the room: sufficient exposure can never be obtained because there are not enough people who will ever be interested. The WTS is a minority sect that people in general and the mainstream media only have a cursory interest in at best.”
Simon,
When I speak of “exposure” I’m not simply talking about media coverage. Exposure is whatever liability lies in wait or is otherwise brought to bear.
Exposure of Watchtower’s deeds to public media will, at best, form a platform for other liabilities waiting in the wings or developed through passage of legislation and/or courts, or new ethics adopted by authorities in various disciplines (such as medicine). Ultimately it’s financial exposure where the proverbial rubber will meet the road and that things will happen as a result.
Marvin Shilmer
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Marvin Shilmer
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“Isn't there also a risk that external pressure can also easily be the catalyst for more hard-line positions to be taken?”
Simon,
So long as pressure is within acceptable social norms the risk you speak of is not subject to exploitation.
“If I ran the WTS and there was an anti-WTS group? I'd be all over that persecution complex like you wouldn't believe ...”
This is why the original name of AAWA was such a bad idea. It wrongly put the group on a fringe right out of the box. The tragedy is that with a few exceptions I have yet to meet an AAWA supporter with ideas of taking the mission outside acceptable social norms to achieve success. This means the name was never a good fit in the first place. That said, new endeavors hardly every get off the ground without hiccups and blunders, even serious ones.
Watchtower will have a hard time claiming persecution from folks who only want humane treatment of people. If they stay on that message and find a way to leverage additional forces AAWA can find exponential influence. By itself AAWA will not be able to do much, if anything. That’s the way it is with everything and everyone. The key is getting taken up by existing systems of influence, which as they exist feed on one another, which is high value target exponent.
And, by the way, Watchtower has tried the above and got pounded by folks who saw it and took action to put an end to it.
Marvin Shilmer
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Simon
That was quite early in their history, well below 100k members and probably the birth of 'modern JWs' as you describe. I seriously doubt something like that could happen now even with a major scandal. This is just the nature of religious belief and religion in America isn't going anywhere soon (or are we taking that down too?).
However the issue is framed, it always comes down to this: no one is going to take down an organised religion of any significant size and nothing is ever going to change that.
Now, that sounds like a defeatist attitude and letting the WTS 'win' ... it's not.
The truth is, there is no spoon. Erm, I mean WTS.
The WTS is a legal organization, yes, but without members it is just a holding company. The JW members are the WTS. There is no way on earth that they are all going to wake up one morning and decide that it's all wrong. Even if there were schisms, they would still be the members, just split into separate organizations.
You've probably heard this story:
While walking along a beach, an elderly gentleman saw someone in the distance leaning down, picking something up and throwing it into the ocean.
As he got closer, he noticed that the figure was that of a young man, picking up starfish one by one and tossing each one gently back into the water.
He came closer still and called out, “Good morning! May I ask what it is that you are doing?”
The young man paused, looked up, and replied “Throwing starfish into the ocean.”
The old man smiled, and said, “I must ask, then, why are you throwing starfish into the ocean?”
To this, the young man replied, “The sun is up and the tide is going out. If I don’t throw them in, they’ll die.”
Upon hearing this, the elderly observer commented, “But, young man, do you not realise that there are miles and miles of beach and there are starfish all along every mile? You can’t possibly make a difference!”
The young man listened politely. Then he bent down, picked up another starfish, threw it into the back into the ocean past the breaking waves and said, “It made a difference for that one.”
Trying to bring down the WTS or even change the WTS is like trying to stop the tide coming in or the sun coming out. It just isn't going to happen. But what we can do is help individual people leave.
Yes, we were hurt and want to hurt the organisation back. But the organisation is the group of people that we knew that hurt us - only our friends and family can hurt us by shunning! Sure, they followed what some old farts in NY printed in a magazine and they were stupid to do it, just as we were stupid to ever follow it as well, but the people who follow it are the people who hurt us. The ones doing the shunning are the ones who do the shunning and make that choice.
Just as we have a tendency to excuse our own poor choices and push the blame onto others, so we do the same with our friends and family and naturally want to blame the WTS for making the rules, but rules that they chose to follow. There needs to be some personal and familial blame. Instead of trying to blame the WTS, place the blame on the people doing the shunning because they are the ones who are causing the hurt. Don't let them use the excuse that they were "following orders" and that shouldn't get them off the hook. Make them feel bad for what they do, not "good and righteous" for following their creed. Whether that is with heartfelt please of shouting in their face really depends on the people involved. Sorry, there are no silver bullets.
Videos are great if they educate people and prevent people falling into it. Maybe some will do a little research when they first hear the message although I don't think that is typical. Making videos probably feels cathartic for those involved in making them but my personal belief is that they don't ultimately achieve as much for the people who they are supposedly for as the ones bahind them. I don't mean that to denigrade people's efforts, I just believe it to be true - what we believe can't always be what we'd like.
Sadly, all we can do is help individual starfish that we come across.
But that is something to those starfish.
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ÁrbolesdeArabia
Marvin do you remember the radical environmental group "Earth First!" and how they brought the "clear cutting" and "Logging destructo" companies to their knees? You did not want to get on their nasty list, the Watchtower is only brave through their rank-and-file individuals in the Field. I am willing to bet when the pressure hits them directly (cash or personal jail time) they would be wiling to change their methods of evil. They do not care about the Sheeples in all those Kingdom Halls, they are nothing more than a Publisher Card in their eyes. These clowns will not loose sleep because the rules they impose do not effect them. Remember, even if they behave badly they are still going to get their giant bowels of Soft-Serve Vanilla Ice Cream!
Realistically, would the Bethelites and Governing Body members sit in a Concentration Camp for the right to Shun or would they have a "New Light" by Jehovah saying "We must forgive 777 times?" The Nancy Yueing story demonstrated how cowardly the GB and African-Euro-Asian Branches truly were. How many high ranking JWs do you see sitting in a enternment camp in Eritrea or Pakistan, none! Pass the Soft-Serve Ice Cream (t.m.)!
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Simon
So clear cutting and logging forestation has been stopped? Temporary halts until the news clears isn't long term success.
It's important to remeber that for all the WTS hype about being global, it's mostly an American religion (although the growth in Brazil may make it an Americas religion). They really don't care about poor countries other than for their own internal feel-good propaganda.
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Marvin Shilmer
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Simon,
Watchtower’s history only tells us what someone in the religion business is willing to face and do in order to maintain the business to grow another day. That’s all it tells us and it’s why I alluded to it earlier.
“However the issue is framed, it always comes down to this: no one is going to take down an organised religion of any significant size and nothing is ever going to change that.”
I agree it’s delusional to think the Watchtower organization is going to be taken down. If nothing else, we learn this from history in general, and in particular from Watchtower’s own history from the 1920s and 30s.
“Trying to bring down the WTS or even change the WTS is like trying to stop the tide coming in or the sun coming out. It just isn't going to happen. But what we can do is help individual people leave.”
Now we disagree about something. Though I think it’s silly for anyone to attempt to or think they can destroy Watchtower as a religion, I think it highly likely it can be changed and will change. This religion has thrived on change! That’s how dependable is the question of “change” versus “no change”. The only question is will it change for the better or for the worse.
Eventually the Watchtower religion will reach a plateau of social acclimation that closer to social norms. It’s only a question of time, and influence. Religion after religion has walked the same path. AAWA is just trying to hurry Watchtower down the path a little faster than it would otherwise go.
Marvin Shilmer