YHWH v YHVH - yes, V not W

by *lost* 150 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  *lost*

  Band on the run, thank you, thank you thank you.

  See people need to leave their preconceptions, assumptions and personal opinions at the door.

  That is the difference.

  Knowledge is power, power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

  Also arrogance. Some people just don't understand their arrogance. They think because they have discovered something and have researched it and know it and have that info stored in their heads., everyone shold 'just magically know it''

  It is arrogance. How on earth are we supposed to just absorb all of the information that is out there in what, like a day.

  And then consistently use hubris against the very ones who are trying to figure it out and put it together. IT DOES NOT HELP

  Jeffro - you have the patience of a saint ?? no one is asking you to be here though are they, complicating matters.

  Your presentation cannot be objectional because you atheist beliefs taint the tone. You cannot state, ok, there was talk about a lot of gods back then 1000's of years ago - which there was - this Bible story has gotten mighty confused and mixed up (for whatever reason is irrelevant).

  We are talking about an ancient world here people, not the world we are living in today, it was a very different place.

  Look how our own societies have changed in the past 30,40,100 yrs!! big differences.

  The point here, is, there is a lie, there is a deception, just because in your mind you think there isn't, and maybe you don't care, is irrelevant.

  When I talk to jws in my culture, I know what they are saying, I know what they believe. YOU DO NOT. Not every jw is the same, all people are different.

  I have to figure out a way to figure out this mess, and it is a colossal mess, it not as easy as it is for you atheists. There are a lot of people out there who are in the same boat.

  I have to figure out a way to approach people I love, and respect, good people, not like I hear about the people in wt you all talk about here, and I have to drop an A-bomb on their world.

  Christians believe in Abba the Father, God the Creator, there is no way your going to change that. That is what binds them to the org.
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  Jeffro

  *lost*:

  Your presentation cannot be objectional because you atheist beliefs taint the tone.

  Objectional is another word for objectionable, but I think you actually mean objective? Anyway...

  Again, you are distorting things. I have actually stated several times that irrespective of whether god exists, it makes absolutely no difference to the fact that your word games about the name Jehovah do not make 'Jehovah = Satan'.

  It comes down to what words actually mean. The fact that I do not believe in any particular entity has no bearing on that whatsoever.

  As I stated on the other thread:

  If I like chocolate icecream, and someone calls 'chocolate' blargle, and then someone else says blargle is 'really' strawberry, it doesn't mean I 'really' like strawberry icecream instead of chocolate.

  If someone believes in God (the 'true' god, the 'creator' as taught in the Abrahamic faiths), and that person calls 'God' Jehovah (or any of the other names for the same deity), and then you come along and say that name 'really' means Satan (based on incorrect etymological relationships plus a whole extra layer of speculation to reach the conclusion), it has absolutely no bearing on which deity the person is actually worshipping, no matter how many word games you play, and no matter whether the deity actually exists.

  You cannot state, ok, there was talk about a lot of gods back then 1000's of years ago - which there was - this Bible story has gotten mighty confused and mixed up (for whatever reason is irrelevant).

  Again, that's just a lie. I've stated several times that the god Yahweh was worshipped as one of various gods among the Canaanites.
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  mP

  Lost:

  mp - where does it say that, can you tell me so that I can look it up as well. thanks

  mP:

  I cant show whats not in the bible. As i previously said all lang about Satan is extremely biased and aganst him. Jehovah is quite a terrible character in the OT, but yet he is never condemned. King David as well would make Hitler blush, but he too is never condemned. He neer did a nice thing in his life, nor did he show any pity on the poor or weak. He simply raped, stole and killed them.
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  Jen2013

  That is also my conclusion when reading the OT. Yahweh (JHWH) was one of many gods. And as we know, in these old times the illiterate desert tribes worshipped even volcanoes and mountains as gods, because they were not able to understand natural phenomena. Earthquakes, thunderstorms and floods appeared as anger of the gods. The roaring of a volcano was gods voice and so on. But over the centuries the invention of the ancient Yahweh (one of many gods) could win through and due to the promotion of some influential men could develop and transform to a new and single god. Monotheism was born. Yahweh (JHWH) had a wife, Asherah. The latest archaeological records proof that.
  
  But I understand *lost*. If you want to argue with someone who's been talked into believing that Jehovah is and was the only god - which of course is also an invention of men, a misinterpretation and in some cases even a lie, or in the case of the Watchtower Company an open conspiracy, which I can proof with their own literature. If you want to argue with someone, who has been tricked into this conspiracy invention of the Watchtower than you have to think and argue differently. And if you study the history and the literature of the Watchtower Company and the pictures, images and words they use in their literature, there is no doubt, that the Watchtower Company promotes the Lightbringer (Lucifer), again, another conspiracy and invention of men.
  
  For those you can understand German, a documentary on TV, the career of Yahweh:
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzVGX7gIktQ
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  mP

  Jen

  The israelites were not monotheists but monolarists. They worshipped one god but acknowledged many others, which is quite a big difference from the monotheist beliefs of many.
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  mP

  Jen

  Yahweh (JHWH) had a wife, Asherah. The latest archaeological records proof that.

  mP:

  YOu dont even need to go to archeology, the menorah is an Asherah tree.
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  Jeffro

  Jen2013:

  But I understand *lost*. If you want to argue with someone who's been talked into believing that Jehovah is and was the only god - which of course is also an invention of men, a misinterpretation and in some cases even a lie, or in the case of the Watchtower Company an open conspiracy, which I can proof with their own literature.

  But the thing is, telling a JW that 'Jehovah = Satan' isn't going to get through to most JWs. It's a good way to get their emotional walls up as quick or quicker than any other argument. And the argument is based on flawed semantics.

  Depending on the particular JW, issues like 607 BCE or child abuse or the UN affiliation or changes in doctrine or blood use or shunning are more likely as starting points to help them see 'TTATT' than using a false precept to claim they're 'really' worshipping 'Satan'.
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  Jen2013

  Yes I know. In early times people worshipped many gods, some worshipped just one out of the many gods, and some worshipped more at the same time. But nowadays the big religions have a totally different image (imagination) of the only god, the god of the unholy Bible. I just tried to point out that Yahweh (the volcano- or mountain-god in the beginning) has a career. The German documentary is quite interesting. Hopefully it will be translated someday into English.
  
  Yes I understand. It can be, that it is not the best agument to convince a Witness of the Watchtower by telling him, that the Watchtower promotes the Lightbringer. But somehow it is so apparent, isn't it? And if someone, a former Witness like *lost* realises it, I can understand that he has a need to talk about it, even if it does not reach many Witnesses, but I can tell you, it does reach outsiders and information like the Watchtower being a satanic cult could help as a preventive for outsiders not even to consider to become a part of that group. ExWitnesses can accomplish more, if they concentrate on unknowing outsiders. If a Witness of the Watchtower goes from door to door the one inside the house should already know more about the history of the Watchtower than the Witness itself. Informing the public would be a good strategy to save gullible people to become members of a cult.
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  *lost*

  jefffro

  The jws I know, are actually thinking normal everyday people. Just like every day other modern christians, just their reigion is a different brand.

  A much worse brand in my opinion. Yes you can dictate facts. I'm not arguing your facts. The facts have to be proven.

  Saying there is no Abba God/Jesus/Satan/Angels/Demons and the Bible is BS, is not what I will listen to, it is not what the breed of jw I know will listen to. It's not what a lot of Catholics or anyone else will listen to either.

  There are people who do belive, they want to believe.

  Lumping Abba Father in with paganism is not going to fo anything. For thousands of years people have believed and have faith in the One True God the Father, The Creator, The Son.

  This breed of people I know, think like I think, I have to present them with evidence they will think about, think, then digest, then research, then accept.

  Jews were not always Jews, first they were the...

  The Israelites were not always Israelites, first they were the ....

  Hebrews ..... were Hebrews just another nation. A pagan nation ?

  When did the transition form Hebrew to Israelite happen. ( Biblicaly)

  Is it true, that the starting point, the catalyst for that transition began when Abraham was called by Abba Father to leave Ur of the Chaldees ?

  regards, lost
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  Jeffro

  This breed of people I know, think like I think, I have to present them with evidence they will think about, think, then digest, then research, then accept.
  [Jews ... Israelites ... Hebrews ... Abraham...]

  And as soon you diverge from their 'playbook', they'll mentally 'shut down' (except for the occasional JW who might already have their own doubts on the subject). JW literature casts doubt on any sources that disagree with their rather distorted views of history/archaeology/anthropology.

  It's also problematic to present the historical development if at the same time you insist of sticking to the biblical story. There's no evidence Abraham (Jewish folklore) actually existed, no evidence of the Jewish 'Exodus' from Egypt (borrowed from Ethiopic stories), etc, much less the stories about Noah or Adam (borrowed from Babylonian stories).

  With most JWs, the best response you'll get is, "well, that might be what the so-called 'experts' of 'the world' say, but I believe the Bible [by which they mean, JW interpretations]." You'd be much better off showing JWs a) issues with the organisation now, or b) how JW beliefs contradict scripture. (If the latter, discuss issues that are not overly subject to interpretation.)