How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

by tootired2care 327 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • adamah
    adamah

    Caliber said-

    Notice the arguement most often comes down to the morally of God...how we perceive or judge his actions as recorded in the Bible

    That's correct: you catch on quick!

    As far as the "actions recorded in the Bible", bit: well no kidding, since as those who are not blessed with gnosis (and unable to be "gifted by God" with insights and just "KNOWING" things, in a manner that does a flip's worth of good for anyone ELSE), that's ALL we have to go on.

    Which is ironic, in-and-of-itself: you'd THINK that true believers would have better familiarity with what they see as prime evidence #1 (i.e. the Bible) than an atheist would, but as even this thread shows, that's rarely the case (a recent poll found that atheists actually know the Bible and theology better than believers; Google for the poll, if you want). In fact, there seems to be an inverse correlation, where those MOST knowledgable of the Bible who don't have a vested interest in the matter (eg a priest who spent four years earning a doctor of divinity degree, or even the elder who has earned a position of responsibility and control of others within the Org) actually have a greater disbelief in God.

    Is it anger at God or disappointment within ourselves that our one time expectations ( maybe implanted by others ) have failed ?

    PULEEZE, not the argument that's only one-step removed from the popular Top 40 fave of theists: "You Atheists are ANGRY with God and you don't WANT him to exist, so you can deny His existence and SIN!"?

    (And your pix of the angry women cursing God seemingly confirms that charge.)

    Deception and perception are they related?

    Uh, ya' think? That's only one of the most firmly-established connections in human psychology, and is the entire basis of how magic works, i.e. by exploiting vulnerabilities of the human perceptual system, thus relying on deception.

    If they are related who should we blame ... God , other people or simply idea's?

    OK, I'll play.

    I don't hate God(s), since as hard as it is to comprehend for a believer of Ahuru Mazda, Ra, Thor, Jehovah, Vishnu, etc, I don't BELIEVE Gods exist. (Sometimes it's helpful to grasp if I express that in the language of Bible-speak: "Verily, verily, I say to you today: I do NOT believe in God(s) Almighty." Does that help?). Therefore, it's hard to HATE or be angry with that which I don't believe exists.

    Similarly, hating the IDEA of God is equally ludicrious and silly, if you'd only give it a moment's thought, eg ideas don't exist apart of people's minds.

    Rather, I DO have contempt for ANYONE and EVERYONE who manipulates the image of God in order to control others, EVEN IF it's done in the name of "but it's for their own good" (in fact, ESPECIALLY if it's done in the name of benevolence: that's often a hallmark of power abusers).

    That blame and contempt goes for the GB of JW, who control vast armies of believers by controlling the image of Jehovah (via controlling the message delivered in the WT and Awake! mags) , down to the lowliest R&F publisher who facilitates the organization by spreading their nonsense looking for "interested ones" (AKA new recruits, fresh meat).

    Hence, EVERYONE who SUPPORTS and shares in the God fantasy shares a piece of the pie for the blood-guilt resulting from the shared delusion, i.e. they are indirectly (yet still) morally-responsible for eg, the deaths of infant who die due to refusal of blood transfusions, or the gay teen who commits suicide out of shame after being DFed, etc. Don't worry: there's PLENTY of blood-guilt to be shared.

    That goes for ANY believer of ANY religion which relies on the oldest fallacy "in the Book", the "Appeal to a Divine (non-existent) Authority", whether it's done in this thread by Latin Thunder (who appealed to God's vast power in order to get us to accept HIS conclusion without being able to offer a semblance of a sound argument, but only able to appeal to fear of God's punishment), or in other threads with non-JW theists. ALL theist's arguments fall apart under close scrutiny, since the Bible itself contains contradictions as Jewish/Christian theology evolved (due to syncretism, etc).

    (And you're invited to pick up the sword dropped by a slain Latin Thunder, and take up his side by pointing out my "horribly flawed" reasoning and misunderstanding which he accused me of having, for the Bible accounts mentioned in the thread (eg Adam and Eve's fall, Noah, Abraham, etc). Apparently he fled, rather than having to admit he didn't know the Bible as well as he thought he did, and thus wasn't able to offer proof apart from what he WANTED the accounts to say.)

    It's been half a century since I believed, and I remember as a kid how I experienced first-hand the "warm glow" of Jehovah's love for me (all self-induced by IMAGINING what we want to feel, of course). But after putting away "the thoughts of a child" and spending decades examining MOUNTAINS of evidence (eg Bible scholars use of literary-criticism, archaeology, studying biology, physics, etc) and seeing nothing that points to God or Divine inspiration for the Bible, and seeing MOUNTAINS of evidence which points to the Bible as being only the work of clever men who controlled others by 1) convincing them a God exists 2) speaking for that God, the decision is simple. I go with the available evidence.

    So while YOU may be willing to sacrifice YOUR rationality to go with only loosey-goosey feelings that your gut tells you is true (since it happifies you, due to alleviation of YOUR fears), don't drag the rest of us down into that mental cesspool with you, without at least offering a shred of evidence as to WHY we should commit intellectual suicide!

    Adam

  • latinthunder
    latinthunder
    who appealed to God's vast power in order to get us to accept HIS conclusion without being able to offer a semblance of a sound argument, but only able to appeal to fear of God's punishment

    False conclusion.

  • cofty
    cofty

    Have you ever bothered to introduce yourself Latin?

    Are you an ex-JW or did you just open an account so you could get some much-needed practice at christian apologetics?

  • caliber
    caliber

    PULEEZE, not the argument that's only one-step removed from the popular Top 40 fave of theists: "You Atheists are ANGRY with God and you don't WANT him to exist, so you can deny His existence and SIN!"?

    Ok you're not angry with God .... so tell me then what is the dominate emotion the flows in you when you think of the concept of god ?

  • latinthunder
    latinthunder
    Are you an ex-JW or did you just open an account so you could get some much-needed practice at christian apologetics?

    I'm an exJW. Why do you think I am a Christian?

  • MadGiant
    MadGiant

    I would like to apologize in advance for any misspellings and errors. English is my second language. -

    With all due respect, don't you think you are been a little bit dishonest? You have to either believe in the whole bible or none of it. You don't throw out the parts that make you feel uncomfortable, they are part of the book.

    The god of the Hebrew scriptures "yhwh" was a jealous, arrogant, angry, sadistic been (S.O.B.) and the god of the Greek scriptures "yeshua" (assuming their was a real historical demigod as portrayed in the Bible) was an a-hole. Stop making excuses for your invisible "daddies in the sky". PS: stop with the electricity analogies, you do not refuse to look at dangerous things, rather you learned how to handle them safely.
    The bible is much more that John 3:16.

  • adamah
    adamah

    caliber said-

    Ok you're not angry with God .... so tell me then what is the dominate emotion the flows in you when you think of the concept of god ?

    I answered ALL of that above; look for the part that begins with, "Rather, I do have".... then note what dominant emotion I specifically mentioned.

    Before that, I explained that I don't THINK or FEEL any emotion for God, since I don't BELIEVE in God(s). Did you forget: I'm an ATHEIST?

    Maybe this'll help you understand:

    I "feel" about Jehovah like the average JW thinks and feels about a deity they've never heard of, and don't believe in, eg Kami-no-Kaze. How do you "feel" about the Japanese Shintoist's member of the Pantheon, the "god of the wind"?

    I feel and think about Jehovah as you likely feel and think about Kami-no-Kaze, or any of the other MILLIONS of Gods that men have created as a product of their imaginations, and handed down as a cultural tradition.

    Adam

  • tec
    tec

    With all due respect, don't you think you are been a little bit dishonest? You have to either believe in the whole bible or none of it. You don't throw out the parts that make you feel uncomfortable, they are part of the book.

    With all due respect also, who says you have to believe in the whole bible or none of it? (though I agree that you don't get to throw out the parts that make one feel uncomfortable; unless they make you feel uncomfortable because they contradict Christ, who is the Truth... not the bible)

    The bible is not one book: it is many books, and not all scripture (inspired).

    God also did not say, listen to the bible... or listen to the scriptures... or listen to the law. He says (in front of Peter and John, and also Moses and Elijah)... This is my Son, whom I love, Listen to HIM.

    When someone insists that you have to believe in and listen to the bible (all inerrant and inspired)... are they listening to God, or are they listening to men and the traditions of men?

    Peace to you,

    tammy

  • cofty
    cofty

    And yet another thread becomes a platform for the voices in Tammy's head.

    I'm an exJW. Why do you think I am a Christian? - Latinthunder

    Are you one of RoseMary's cult buddies?

  • MadGiant
    MadGiant

    "With all due respect also, who says you have to believe in the whole bible or none of it? (though I agree that you don't get to throw out the parts that make one feel uncomfortable; unless they make you feel uncomfortable because they contradict Christ, who is the Truth... not the bible) The bible is not one book: it is many books, and not all scripture (inspired). God also did not say, listen to the bible... or listen to the scriptures... or listen to the law. He says (in front of Peter and John, and also Moses and Elijah)... This is my Son, whom I love, Listen to HIM." Are you kidding me: ? 2 Timothy 3:16 ? Parallel Verses New International Version All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, New Living Translation All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. English Standard Version All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, New American Standard Bible All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; King James Bible All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Holman Christian Standard Bible All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable for teaching, for rebuking, for correcting, for training in righteousness, International Standard Version All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, Take care, Ismael

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