Oklahoma beheading - Islam is a disease

by Simon 1524 Replies latest members adult

• 

  jgnat

  A good book for putting perspective on fundamentalism and it's various forms:

  http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/27309.The_Battle_for_God

  So you think this leader has not given concrete enough ideas for helping his community. I understood him. Maybe it comes from living inside a diverse community, and sitting on community boards here in Edmonton. I've listened to Sudanese, Sikh, and Muslim first generation and second generation immigrants and their issues.

  Mahamad gave an example of how the second generation immigrant children are at risk. They feel disconnected from their adopted country. Their rootlessness makes them easy prey, not their muslimness.
• 

  Simon

  Mahamad gave an example of how the second generation immigrant children are at risk. They feel disconnected from their adopted country. Their rootlessness makes them easy prey, not their muslim ness.

  I would say their parents 'muslimness' and the way communities isolate themselves contribute to this disconnect and isolation. It's not directly because they are muslim, but the muslim beliefs don't help to encourage because they are so inflexible.

  I'm still not convinced that the moderate muslim message is as different as you and others are making out. I've no doubt that it's portrayed by people who are aware that it's true betrayal would be damaging in a way that makes it appear very different - lots of "islam is peaceful" phrases thrown in for good measure. But we all know about theocratic lying and how people can be individually honest but brought up in a system that intends to deceive any it sees as a threat to its existence and continued growth.

  I grew up in Manchester. It's probably as mixed a community as it's possible to be. Some people integrated, some didn't.

  I don't think the disconnect in itself explains the easy radicalization - I think it's disengenuous to believe that the underlying 'moderate' beliefs don't help prepare the soil in any way.
• 

  jgnat

  ...and I think you are imparting motive on a community you barely understand.

  Mahamad is a muslim, moderate or not, and the community he represents does not want their children recruited in to ISIS.
• 

  jgnat

  Mahamad mentions in the radio interview his own battle with isolation. He has a degree from an Alberta college, yet he struggles to have his credentials respected or believed here. Why is that?
• 

  Simon

  Mahamad is a muslim, moderate or not, and the community he represents does not want their children recruited in to ISIS.

  Where have I said otherwise?

  What I'm saying is that maybe their children wouldn't be so easy to recruit if their indoctrinated beliefs weren't so close to those of ISIS.

  If I didn't want MY kids to be recruited and I was teaching them things that were the same as or close to the underlying message from some other group then don't I bear some responsibility for that alone and especially if I don't make it clear that WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT CRAP. Oh yeah, but "word of god" so I guess nothing can be done and I'd just have to go on teaching it to them - instead of what I should be teaching them which is that it's crap and you need to learn to think for yourself!

  Do you see the problem yet?

  Mahamad mentions in the radio interview his own battle with isolation. He has a degree from an Alberta college, yet he struggles to have his credentials respected or believed here. Why is that?

  It depends what the degree is for and what he expects to get based on experience etc...

  But what has that got to do with the price of milk?
• 

  jgnat

  ...and children raised in a Christian home are similarly vulnerable to radical "Christian" messages (*cof* *cof* Ireland). It especially helps if the child is disconnected from the community at large and rootless. Ban Christianity and we get rid of the radicals, right?

  Do you see the problem with your broad brush yet?

  Mahamad struggles with integration in Canada, partially because of our own inbred prejudices. His accreditation is questioned right off the mark. No doubt the immigrant community's children face similar hurdles.
• 

  Billyblobber

  re: LUHE: "I would not agree with your first question/paragraph - rather christians and jews integrate better because they have contextualised their holy texts; this has yet to happen in any meaningful way in Islam.

  'Religion is the symptom, not the issue' - not so.

  Islam was around centuries before the British empire and America started p1$$ing muslims off - and you know it."
  
  -----------
  
  I would then suggest studying such things as colonialism, the history of the middle east, the Cold War and the start of various schizms due to that, etc.
  
  There are a lot of reasons why Africa and the Middle East take so long to become as "progressive" as England, the U.S., Canada, etc., and it mostly has to do with the history of the area, etc.
  
  For instance, even though the whole division in Rwanda that snowballed into the genocide was based on the Christian division of the groups based on Noah's son's, it wasn't Christianity's "fault" in itself because of the Bible; it was because of colonialism using religion to justify a political division of people. The same goes for the U.S. and slavery, etc.

  That's why people keep bringing up those things "in the past." You are creating a double standard if you don't, say, blame slavery on Christianity, but blame, say, terrorism on Islam. You can't ignore geographical and political history in one instance and make it the focus in the other, and the only difference between "it was in the past" and not, is that the histories are -different.- The U.S. is behind a lot of places in Europe, for instance, because of it's ridiculous size, that it was founded, more recently, by a lot of religious groups, and a plethora of other reasons.
• 

  Simon

  ...and children raised in a Christian home are similarly vulnerable to radical "Christian" messages (*cof* *cof* Ireland). It especially helps if the child is disconnected from the community at large and rootless. Ban Christianity and we get rid of the radicals, right?

  Except that was more of a geo-political issue with sectarianism thrown in and it wasn't the world-wide issue that islam is. There was no need to ban or change the christian message because it was not involved in the conflict at all and didn't fan it. No one quoted christian scriptures before killing people (AFAIK).

  Do you see the problem with your broad brush yet?

  Yes, you are trying to apply it to things it is not applicable to. Christianity is not like Islam.

  Mahamad struggles with integration in Canada, partially because of our own inbred prejudices. His accreditation is questioned right off the mark. No doubt the immigrant community's children face similar hurdles.

  Aren't you painting everyone with a broad brush and deciding their opinion for them?

  I'm sorry but you really don't know the reasons for other peoples's choices unless they have published them someplace and I haven't seen what his accreditiation is or what his complaint is.

  It just seems to be a generic "it's not fair, I'm not getting what I'm entitled to" complaint without any specifics that we can really talk to.

  Do you have specifics?

  What is his accreditation? Who is questioning it? How are the questioning it? What has he done about it?
• 

  Simon

  That's why people keep bringing up those things "in the past." You are creating a double standard if you don't, say, blame slavery on Christianity, but blame, say, terrorism on Islam. You can't ignore geographical and political history in one instance and make it the focus in the other, and the only difference between "it was in the past" and not, is that the histories are -different.- The U.S. is behind a lot of places in Europe, for instance, because of it's ridiculous size, that it was founded, more recently, by a lot of religious groups, and a plethora of other reasons.

  I don't quite understand the importance of bringing up the past sins of christianity as though no one acknowledges them. A re we supposed to allow islam some slack so it can get even?

  Or can we not learn from past mistakes and say "hey, turns out allowing religious people to run things always turns out really bad ... let's not do it again!"

  No one is saying chistianity hasn't done bad things but they are mostly all in the distant past and not happening now.

  The issues with islam are happening right now. How does looking backward help us other than to remind us that allowing religion to go unchecked is STUPID and leads to abuses.
• 

  jgnat

  I don't see why you refuse to see this. You have concluded that Islamic beliefs are the disease. Therefore, rid the disease and the Muslim world is cured of terrorism. This is fundamentally flawed.

  OF COURSE the Irish Problem was political/socio/economic. So are the problems in the Middle East. Religious pretentions are only the veneer.

  I'm not trying to say "Christianity is just as bad". I'm saying, shoot the right problem.