@Frazzled - I don't start from the position that there's something inherently violent in Islam and then work from there. I start from the position that jihadists commit atrocities for their faith and then ask the reasonable question: to what extent is Islam responsible for this?
Oklahoma beheading - Islam is a disease
by Simon 1524 Replies latest members adult
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Billyblobber
The relevance of Christianity and Judaism is to determine whether the issue is either:
a) With religions in general. If Christianity and Judaism have the same issues when placed in similar soci-political climates, then the issue is not Muslim-specific, but part of combining an ancient religion with politics.
or
b) With the Muslim religion in general. This is saying that, if placed in a 1-1 history/environment, Muslims will, by default, come off worse than Christians.
Therefore, the comparison is quite relevant.
I don't think anyone is arguing in overall favor of Muslims/Islam/etc. - the point is that all Abrahamic religions based on ancient texts are equally stupid, and equally have the potential to be warped for violence, and none in particular should be eradicated or levied against without doing the same to the rest.
What else has been pointed out is that most Muslim-Western immigrants/natives are implants from non-Western geo-political systems within the last century. As a comparison, it took till the beginning of the last century for the Christian west ITSELF to be a little less backwards/similar to how Islam is now, and there are still large portions that are quite backwards and not too far off.
Therefore, the entire framing of the argument should consider the history and geography and context. It's impossible to talk about Muslim related issues without bringing in the broad ideas of how Abrahamic religions can inherently be turned towards violence and should stay far away from politics, and why those regions are so much more easy to manipulate in the first place. But again, that would take nuance as opposed to just seeing thigns as "us vs. them."
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LoveUniHateExams
@Billyblobber 'The relevance of Christianity and Judaism is to determine if the issue is with religions in general'
Ok so the three abrahamic religions all have silly doctrines and violent texts.
But extremist christians and jews are not waging war on unbelievers; extremist muslims are.
Christians and jews integrate well in the West and in muslim countries whereas muslims lag way behind in this regard.
Would you agree with me that Islamic reform is neccessary and urgent?
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Frazzled UBM
LUHE - are you going to personally reform Islam? I sort of agree but would put it differently: everything possible should be done to support moderate, tolerant, progressive muslim leaders (in particular those muslim leaders who support the ijtihad tradition of independent thinking which takes an interpretative rather than literal approach) and to identify and counter the trends that are radicalizing young muslims in the muslim world and in the West. Perversely though obvious Western support for such muslim leaders may make them less credible. The unfortuante reality is that radical Islamic political ideologies are in the ascendant and the deterioriation of the old authoritarian structures in the Arab world and the perception that the West is at War with Islam are among the many factor that are driving this. Fraz
Billyblobber - thanks for your contributions to this thread. It is indeed brave to swim against the tide of vitriol Simon started.
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LoveUniHateExams
@Frazzled - please put accusations of vitriol to one side. This is a heated debate between adults about a particularly emotive topic.
'everything possible should be done to support moderate, tolerant, progressive muslim leaders' - I agree 100% with you on this - any abuse, ridiculing, gratuitous mockery of religious belief should be stamped out and we should get behind and encourage these types of people you mentioned.
'LUHE - are you going to personally reform Islam?' - obviously no but if enough people, muslims and non-muslims alike, have this aim then reform might be possible in the near to medium future, at least in the West.
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Simon
Frazzled UBM, I think you are trying to use clever words to twist the interpretation of things.
Even on the Death to Apostates angle Simon has admitted that only in some more backward Muslim countries are there a majority of Muslims who believe in death to Apostates
What I 'admitted' is that yes, there is an overwhelming majority in the most hardcore muslim countries but even in what are commonly viewed as 'moderate' muslim countries where the view is thankfully a minority it is very often a very sizeable minority and represents millions of muslims.
As I said, it's not an election where you need a majority vote. A sizeable chunk of a population believing something so outrageous is hardly a good advery for Islam as being a religion of peace is it?
That so many would openly admit to holding such inhuman views is troubling and these views should be very isolated among moderate people but they are not, even then it's in the UK and there are 8% of muslims who believe terrorism against civilians can be justified for their faith it's WAY TOO MANY and it seems that the common denominator is islam.
I haven't watched the video but I am sure whoever it is expressing these extreme views and representing himself as speaking on behalf of Islam, that he does not speak for moderate muslims generally even if he says he does.
Maybe you should watch it - it is not the speaker saying they support it, it is the audience who identify themselves as moderate.
I think the word moderate is frankly being perverted whenever it is applied to islam. What exactly do they need to do and what views and beliefs do they need to hold to *not* get the label?
Would anyone decribe the KKK as moderate christians? If we said "hey, I'm sure only 8% actually support killing blacks vs discrimination" would that be acceptable?
What I find disturbing is the Islamic Strawman you people - Simon included - have created by selectively taking muslims expressing extreme views and then characterising them as the views of moderate muslims
This is my point - these extreme views are widely and commonly held views among the mainstream muslim population because they are indoctrinated with the beliefs constantly.
You either oppose tyranny or you excuse it and by your silence support it. Anyone who is not saying that these ideas are bad and wrong and trying to make out that holding them is somehow OK needs their morality examined IMO. I think they believe it makes them inclusive and liberal when it just makes them a spineless appeaser.
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Simon
I said Simon was wrong in saying that moderate Muslims wanted Death for Homosexuals - the recent release of the Brit in Morocco who had been charged with homosexuality supports this.
Really? One guy? One case? You don't think it would have anything to do with pressure from the British government to get the guy released? What happens to the people who are not visitors from an influencial overseas nation?
You try to defend the indefensible instead of doing the right thing and condemning it. I find your opinions vile and sickening.
Your arguments about Muslim attitudes to homosexuality is an attempt to move the goal posts to deflect from the fact that what Simon had said was wrong. You have employed the same tactic in the arguments about Sunnis and Shia in responding to jgnat. I wodner where you learnt this tactics when debating?
No, it's an example of the depravity of the belief system where many openly support death for those they consider 'different'
Catholics and Protestants killed each other during the Troubles and the IRA bombed London - does that mean there is something inherently defective in Christiantiy?
Now who's moving the goalposts? While a lot of the troubles with NI had sectarian roots that was mixed with a lot of political grievance as well but if christianity had been promoting the idea that killing non-believers was the thing to do then yes we would be criticising it as being inherently defective.
It doesn't, but Islam does - so why aren't you saying that it's inherently defective as a result?
What next, "nazis were misunderstood and not all bad"?
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Simon
everything possible should be done to support moderate, tolerant, progressive muslim leaders (in particular those muslim leaders who support the ijtihad tradition of independent thinking which takes an interpretative rather than literal approach) and to identify and counter the trends that are radicalizing young muslims in the muslim world and in the West
Isn't one of the 'everything possible' things to promote the belief that bad ideas can and should be questioned. Commandments in holy books should not be held as absolute and inspired by god.
It seems to me that the people who leap to the defence of islam whenever it's criticised for the evil it contains are not helping the moderate, tollerant or progressive muslims - because that is what the reformers tell us.
Instead some want to defend the radical messages of islam that are so easily diverted into extremist in the mistaken belief that criticism foul ideas is somehow racist.
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Billyblobber
LUHE: Yes. Would you agree that Christians and Jews integrate with the west relatively well because of the correlation that many of those people have more generations of integration with the west in play, in the first place, and the issue is more of an overall regional one that deals more with the socio-political climate more than the religion itself?
Even if modern Muslim/Islam becomes literally 1-1 as progressive as the majority of modern Christianity, it won't solve anything, since those people will still live with the same hardships, in the same place, and will be therefore gulliable to any rhetoric that gives them an illusion of strength and a promise of better things to come. Religion is the symptom, not the issue.
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new hope and happiness
Malik:
I met Malik at colege and we became friends. ( very good friends)
I a Jehovers Witness him a Muslim.
Our seperate religions never destoyed our friendship.
But what changed was the control religion had on our lifes.
Malik started saying " blessed be his name" each time he spoke of his God.
I instead was proud to use the name " Jehover"
We met in the local market many, many years later and Malik asked me to his home for a meal, we were united in Friendship, this our religion could never take a way.
I am not sure how relevent this is to the O.P. But i do know Malik has very different and stronger believes than when we first met. As i also do. We still love each other.
I