More Than You "MAY" Know

by QUANTUM 67 Replies latest jw friends

  • Valis
    Valis
    Now if certain things can be shown as irrefutible by the nature of the evidence, and it confirms what a biblical prophet or buhda or someone else claimed, where a truth is concerned, why would anyone not accept that? Science does.

    Let us not put the horse before the carriage...no ancient prophet or expounder of any religious thought had notions of science that we have....if they had it might be closer to an enlightened world....so do stop being foolish. There is no issue at hand besides your poor attempt to make up some new version of PSUEDO religion. Lots of cultures used calendars based on constellations, which was indeed science and notable in regards the progress of what we know today., but we can take the religious mumbo jumbo they used to validate thier political and spiritual control of thier respective populations, chuck it out the window and still realize they had basic understanding of things like when to plant or harvest, or of the tides or natural cycles, astronomy, etc.... Now you are irritating me so quit before I ask you to stop trolling or at least being a dumbass...

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • QUANTUM
    QUANTUM

    be back later......try to behave you'all

    Q!!!!!

  • QUANTUM
    QUANTUM

    Ok, for me to believe in something, like religion, it has to offer more than just empty promises. I like solid evidenceFirst.then I can start the faith Thing later.

    I sincerely believe that there is OVER WHELMING EVIDENCE for the existence of GOD who has made Himself known and continues to do so and not in some esoteric, indefinable way. If I offer just one or two proofs or evidence the discussion, as far as Im concerned can end here. But I also feel that making grand pronouncements that one has the right to dream up their own belief system is equally invalid for a discussion such as this. Everyone has a right to conscience and what they choose to believe. That is another thread.

    Here, I propose to offer evidence for a certain religious persuasion, I also believe that the evidence cannot be refuted out of hand but should be given a fair hearing. For instance, if someone claimed that Moses lived in a bright pink house and had a rose garden in his back yard and a recent archeological find verified that, then the one making the claim must have received that bit of information from other than normal sources.

    In addition, that GOD has put into place a particular plan , which we are the most important part of. Also verifiable with solid evidence. When all of the evidence is in then the shear weight should be enough for any truth seeker to try and learn more. And lets not be confused about this evidenceit will not be a slanted version or interpretation of the Bible like so many of you have finally run away from. Q!

  • QUANTUM
    QUANTUM

    Jesus Christ quoted often from the Book of Enoch, indirectly testifying of its authenticity. Now it has been discovered that Enoch returns the favor because the key dates in the life of Christ are "holy days" on the Enoch Calendar. Thus, Enoch, who prophesied of the Elect One, indirectly witnessed that the Messiah would be none other than Jesus Christ.

    Jesus Christ and his apostles quoted from the Book of Enoch (also called 1 Enoch) as authentic scripture. It was once in the Bible and was accepted as having been written by Enoch himself, the majestic antediluvian prophet who was translated into heaven without tasting death (Heb. 11:5). During the Third and Fourth Centuries A.D. the book fell into disfavor and was removed from sacred canon, destined to become one of the "lost books" of the Bible. It was rediscovered in 1773 in Ethiopia and is now readily available in English, but is still largely unappreciated. Before looking at the calendar it describes, let us briefly review how it contains doctrines or phrases of the Savior, which are apparently examples of the Savior quoting Enoch.

    Christ Quotes Enoch

    The one direct quote in the New Testament is by Jude, a brother of Jesus Christ:

    "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
    "To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches, which ungodly sinners have spoken against him." (Jude 1:14-15, quoting Enoch 1:9 {2:1} [1].)
    While that is the only referenced quotation in the Bible, there are many indirect references which involve striking similarities. The scholar and translator R.H. Charles declared, "The influence of 1 Enoch on the New Testament has been greater than that of all the other apocryphal and pseudepigraphical books taken together."[2] Another expert noted that "Its influence is apparent in no less than 128 places in the New Testament."[3] The following table compares a few from the introduction to Archbishop Richard Laurence's original translation [4], in which the Savior apparently alludes to the Book of Enoch.

    Jesus Christ Enoch
    Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. (Mat 5:5) The elect shall possess light, joy and peace, and they shall inherit the earth. (Enoch 5:7 {6:9})
    the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the son (John 5:22). the principal part of the judgment was assigned to him, the Son of man. (Enoch 69:27 {68:39})
    shall inherit everlasting life (Mat. 19:29) those who will inherit eternal life (Enoch 40:9 {40:9})
    "Wo unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation. (Luke 6:24) Woe to you who are rich, for in your riches have you trusted; but from your riches you shall be removed. (Enoch 94:8 {93:7}).
    Ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mat. 19:28) I will place each of them on a throne of glory (Enoch 108:12 {105:26})
    Woe unto that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It had been good for that man if he had not been born. (Mat. 26:24) Where will the habitation of sinners be . . . who have rejected the Lord of spirits. It would have been better for them, had they never been born. (Enoch 38:2 {38:2})
    between us and you there is a great gulf fixed. (Luke 16:26) by a chasm . . . [are] their souls are separated (Enoch 22: 9,11{22:10,12})
    In my Father's house are many mansions (John 14:2) In that day shall the Elect One sit upon a throne of glory, and shall choose their conditions and countless habitations. (Enoch 45:3 {45:3})
    that ye may be called the children of light (John 12:36) the good from the generation of light (Enoch 108:11 {105: 25})
    the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life. (John 4:14)

    all the thirsty drank, and were filled with wisdom, having their habitation with the righteous, the elect, and the holy. (Enoch 48:1 {48:1})

    I intend to take this slowly so everyone who is interested can keep up with it

    Q!

  • QUANTUM
    QUANTUM

    History. The Book of Enoch was dropped from the Jewish scriptures shortly after Christ, most likely because it apparently referred to him as the Messiah. It was quoted as scripture by the early Christian Church fathers until the middle of the third century A.D., accepted as a divine work having been written by Enoch himself. It then fell into disrepute and was banned from the canon of scripture in the fourth century, partly because it didn't agree with how Christianity came to be redefined after the death of the apostles.

    The book also doubtlessly raised questions with its unusual imagery, referring to things such as "the stone which supports the corners of the earth" and "the four winds, which bear up the earth" (Enoch 18:2 ). That may have sounded primitive to the sophisticated science of the fourth century, but that is the same imagery used by many great prophets. For example, John the Revelator states, "I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth" (Rev. 7:1; compare imagery of Isa. 11:12, Jer. 49:36, Ezek. 37:9, Dan. 7:2, Mat. 24:31). As is discussed later in this article, often what appears to be primitive science in the scriptures turns out to be the sophisticated concepts of God simplified for us. Note that the prophets have 100% chance of success when predicting the weather, so those angels may have more to do with the wind than we might suppose.

    Thus, for a variety of reasons, the Book of Enoch was systematically purged from the scriptures until it became a "lost book" of the Bible. In 1773 the famous explorer James Bruce discovered it in Ethiopia (then called Abyssinia), and brought back three copies. Fortunately, the Ethiopians had kept it in their Bible, where it was located immediately after the Book of Job.

    One of the three copies was presented to the Oxford library. The first English translation was published in 1821 by Archbishop Richard Laurence, who had been a Professor of Hebrew at Oxford. Later translations included that of George Schodde in 1881, of R.H. Charles in 1913, and by E. Isaac in 1983. The first three translations are now available on the internet. Quotations and links in this article are to the original Laurence translation, because it still appears to be the best overall translation.

    Date of Origin. Modern scholars, beginning with Laurence, all date the origin of the book to the first or second century before Christ, hence it is assigned to the "pseudepigrapha," meaning it is not believed to have been written by the named author. It is dated using standard "scholarly" methods. One rule of dating used by modern scholars, is that if anything is prophesied which turns out to be correct, it must have been written after the event, because otherwise the author would really have to have been a prophet! This complete rejection of the entire concept of revelation forced Laurence to put the authorship of the Book of Enoch extremely late because he saw that it prophesied not only the existence of Parthia (250 B.C.), but even the reign of King Herod the Great, which began in 37 B.C. On the other hand, it was quoted by the Savior and his apostles so it must have been written before their time. Thus Laurence inferred that the book had been written "before the rise of Christianity; most probably at an early period of the reign of Herod. More modern scholarship has concluded that the book was probably written by several authors over the period of about 180-64 B.C. This extremely recent authorship date of course raises the question of how such a late forgery could have been so totally accepted as genuine in just a few decades, which has never been adequately explained.

    In this article, let us consider the outrageous possibility that the work was actually originally written by the prophet Enoch long before the Great Flood and contains many genuine revelations. It probably also contains some interpolations of men, and has suffered from mistakes introduced by the many hand-made transcriptions. But for the purposes of this article, when it says that an angel revealed to Enoch a divine calendar, those statements will be taken at face value. One scientific way to test a hypothesis is to assume it is true and examine the consequences

    I am not copying and pasting a book here but I obviously am doing some copying and pasting from several sources. It's less time consuming thanto write all this information out which might not hold as much weight. When I have completed this exersize I'll give you all of the refrences.

    The scholarship behind all of these posts is all verifiable and can be compared to many other agreeable sources.

    Q!!!

  • gravedancer
    gravedancer

    zzzzzzzzzzzz

  • QUANTUM
    QUANTUM

    this thread will just act as a source of "some" truth if you ever want to wake up grave d. It will be here for your perusal.

    Q!

  • QUANTUM
    QUANTUM

    If we say GOD is a GOD of order then everything He has put His hand in should demonstrate this. all things should make sence and if Christ said that "all things testify of ME" then there should be some evidence we can find. The stars are one and I'll give you the resources for more of those evidences when were done here. for now I am building a portfolio for examination.

    Q!!

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    When do you get to the part where you say what you want to say?? So far, it's something about another god, your personal one, i would gather.

    SS

  • pseudoxristos
    pseudoxristos

    QUANTUM,

    The Pseudepigrapha are much more effective in showing that God does not exist and the Bible is nothing but Myth. Adding more fairy tales to support your position is not going to work.

    "pseudepigrapha," meaning it is not believed to have been written by the named author.

    BTW, you appear to be also quoting 2 ENOCH, but you only give the Date of Origin of 1 ENOCH.

    2 ENOCH is later than 1 ENOCH (see below).

    Enoch answered the people saying hear my children ,before anything was and before the whole creation took place, the Lord established the age of creation; and after that he made all of the creation both visible and invisible and after that he created man in his own image. He gave him eyes to see, ears to hear and a heart to think with and a mind to council. I swear to you my children that before man was in the womb of his mother we were prepared, each individual and a place for each spirit that each should sojourn here in his proper time, that man might be tested in the balance ..." 2 Enoch 17:

    " Enoch went to the Lord who taught him all about creation and his works... He saw matter unorganized before the creation...the council in heaven... He saw Satan aspire and get cast out to become the foundation of lower things, beyond which there ii great darkness and nothing"

    2 Enoch 11:

    " Then the angel Braboil said: Sit down and write all the spirits of men, all those who have not been born yet, and the places which have been prepared for them. All these things were prepared since before the foundation of the world. And I wrote down all the affairs of men. Secrets of Enoch 10: (Vaillant)

    "And everything which is found in this world has been before, and has passed before him and has been arranged [organized] before Him . . . all the creations of the world which have existed in each generation, before they came into this world, have existed before Him in their true form, even all the souls of the children of man have been before they came down to the world, have all been formed before Him in heaven in the very likeness that they have in this world." Zohar III:61

    "When an ancient spirit is about to come down . . . to that region which they call the kingdom of Adam, that Archon who is at the head of the place gives the preexistent soul a cup of forgetfulness..."

    1 (Ethiopic Apocalypse of) ENOCH (Second Century B.C. - First Century A.D.)

    2 (Slavonic Apocalypse of) ENOCH (Late First Century A.D.)

    3 (Hebrew Apocalypse of) ENOCH (FIFTH-SIXTH CENTURY A.D.)

    Date (2 Enoch): Since no manuscripts older than the fourteenth century are known, any time before that is available as the date by which the book reached its present form. But evidence for the complete texts of the two main recensions is somewhat later than that, and the earliest evidence (that of MPr) different from both of them. This divergence is probably the result of transmission in Slavonic, with extensive expansions and contractions (see nn. to the translation). The original translation could have been made in an early period of Slavic literacy, but even so the supposed Greek composition need not have been produced earlier than A.D. 1000. Of course the Greek author could have made use of ancient material, and almost certainly did. But the very freedom of the treatment makes it impossible to prove that any passage which resembles something in another work is a quotation, whether a quotation from 2 Enoch in some other work of known date (proving that 2En existed prior to the writing of the work which quotes it), or whether a quotation from some other work used by the author of 2 Enoch (proving that 2En must be later thatn the work which it quotes). And, quite apart from the elusive character of such evidence, even if it could be proved that 2 Enoch contains such a quotation, this might be no more than a late gloss, and not an integral part of the original work. Of this character are the references to the Julian calendar which are obvious glosses and settle nothing concerning the date of the main text. The suspected echoes of the New Testament seem to be of this kind, and betray more likely the hand of a Christian scribe than the mind of a Christian author. In view of this complicated situation, it is not surprising that dates ranging all the way from pre-Christian times to the late Middle Ages have been proposed for the production of 2 Enoch.

    pseudoxristos

    edited for clarity

    Edited by - pseudoxristos on 11 July 2002 3:17:49

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