If you see my pain. Tell me about it. What do you know of me? Have you read any books that are not on the organizational "good" list about them? Do you know anything about authoritarian organizations or personalities And the "dwelling" if you do not mean that as ill or weak how do you see it? Why are there support groups of any kind if the best way to deal with it is to interalize the problem? With all due respect JW's are not balanced. Just say something negative about the organization even if it is true they are not rational. I know.
Hi
by trybalance 121 Replies latest jw friends
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trybalance
I started to leave along time ago and the questions kept coming. Thank you all again. Sorry that I do not understand the whys. Hope I did not wear you guys out with the whys. Some of you admitted to attitudes and anger. That is just not me. LIfe is very short and when I die these things will still exist. When I look at history their has always been evil and good. There has always been a place to put blame for bad and blame for good. And I figure that will always be the case. My take on the whole thing is that I got to get something good out of my life in spite of all the bad. I cant go through life beating up people and religions that have hurt me or that I dont agree with. Those kind of religions and people- (after all that is what religion is = people-) will always be here. I would not want to grow old just to realize that I spent my life with an attitude. I can change me but I cant change anyone else. And maybe by the changes I make in me I can have a positive effect on others that may prompt them to change also. Picking something or someone apart just dont seem like it will bring about a good change in me or anyone else. I know that there are a lot of dangerous religions out there. Religion is a powerful thing. . But I figure outlawing religion is about like outlawing prostitution. It just hasnt helped yet. Its been around since the beginning of time. Man has killed man. Man has raped women and so forth since the beginning. With all that we have at our disposal today we still cant stop it. Thats why I called myself trybalance. You got to have balance to survive this thing. If I dwelt on all the car wrecks everyday I wouldnt get in a car. But I know that there are crazy drivers out there. I buckle up, keep my eyes open and move forward. I see people do very dangersou things on the road. And there are laws against it. There are police out there. But it still happens all the time. I still drive though. I dont let it overwhelm me. I had a good friend that died because of a stupid driver. I miss that guy. That driver took away a good friend. Nothing I can do will change that. The laws are already there and people still do stupid evil things. Like I said I just cant get overwhelmed by it. I dont save newspaper clipping about every bad driver that killed someone. I dont feel a need to talk about every accident in town where someone was killed. I realize that is was the driver that caused the problem not the car. Thats is about the way I see this thing. The religion has some screwed up stuff going on. But the person is the one that decided to take that ride and stay with it at all costs. But in this case when the person got off the ride they decided to stand around and pick the ride apart for a long time. They followed this ride around and monitored its speed and direction daily. They werent happy just to get off the ride. Even though some people have been on the ride all thier lives and seem quite content with the ride the person that got off seems not to be satisfied until they can convince everyone else that they must share thier view of the ride.
Iwasveryyoungonce I do not even read kingdom hall books. And I do not understand how you relate the word "dwelling" with ill or weak. I think those bonafide support groups are a good thing. I also think that they need to be lead by a trained therapist who can help people gain balance. And it seems to me that saying something negative about a former witness is equally as bad at least here. I just asked questions and shared a viewpoint. And yes I have studied quite a lot. I have an extensive library. As I stated I started reading these sites a good six months prior to putting my words here. I even told of a story I read on another site. But as I said I seem to feel the need to repeat myself a lot here for some reason.And I never said the jw's were balanced. I am not standing up for anyone here. I just asked a question. And that question sparked a lot. As someone said to me earlier- go back and read what I wrote. There just dont seem to be a reason to rewrite it.
I thank you all again for your time. I leave still wondering but I guess the answers are not easy.
I did just go back and reread everything that I wrote. Unless the words are coming out different on my screen than yours I am certain that I did not say anyone was weak, ill or wrong. I only told things the way I am and the way I feel and see it then asked why you felt the way you did. I appreciate those that gave honest answers. Anyone that reads through this thing will see that one is easily accused of saying things they did not say here. Even though I was called heartless and told that I did not love my family I did not respond in the same fashion.
Edited by - trybalance on 14 October 2002 5:14:42
Edited by - trybalance on 14 October 2002 5:42:46
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UnDisfellowshipped
Iwasyoungonce,
Welcome to the Board!
I am so very happy to hear that you are helping people out!
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PopeOfEruke
Hey, this is one damn cool thread! Nice comments from everybody!
Pope
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mouthy
Welcome Trybalance. I AM old & gray headed. I spent over 20 years in the Watchtower. I believed it all- except that Jesus came invisably in 1914. I was disfellowshipped when they came out with the new law-You MUST believe that to have everlasting life.
I will spend the rest of my life( I am 75) just being here for those JW that have been "ousted" because they smoke.fall short in some way or other. Celebrate Christmas, vote, get found out that they had oral sex, I have been in hospital with a fractured scull ( from a unbelieving hubby) but I STILL love JWS..... Truthfully!!!! No hate here.
But I do miss my daughter- who they tell I am part of the Evil Slave class- cos I dont believe Jesus came in 1914- I am so sorry when I hear of SO many who kill them selves because the WT taught them all other religions are evil.And if they leave there is no where to go....
The Nazi's put folks in ovens & roasted them alive. The Watchtower- use shunning to kill those who wont except their teaching. My advice to you. Is continue going to the Kingdom Hall. If you need to be told how to dress, how to walk, what to think, Come back in a year & see if you are as open minded as you seem today..... Cheers!!!
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pettygrudger
Trybalance - hi & welcome to the board.
I know what you mean about some with anger/attitudes - that is a very "normal" reaction. You asked why people "dwell" on them, and the answer is pretty simple. By venting alot of the "negative" here, they are actually trying to move up & onwards from dwelling. Some people do it in therapists offices, some take it out on their families, some on their co-workers etc. etc. To DEAL with anger/pain/hostility is a very normal & healthy.
Granted, alot may jump over others that seem condenscending or hurtful, but if you've actually read a good majority of posts, most when dealing with someone's actual anger/pain experiences are especially supportive. There are undoubtedly some who don't like others here, but by far from the Ex-JW state of mind, this seems like a warm & loving place.
I don't know how you deal w/anger in your world, it sounds as if you are a pretty balanced person. Most here were not given the same avenues to gain the ability to be as balanced.
Also, stating you will "love your wife" no matter what religion she chooses, thats beautiful. But, if she becomes totally indoctrinated by this cult, she will cease to view you as the same. They are being nice to you now, but thats because they want to "win you over". What you don't see, and what many of us w/non-believing parents/spouses has seen is what's going on behind your back. Do you know many of them "pity" your wife? Do you know the extent that her feelings for you may change? Are you ready for the endless nights of debating "being a JW" to be saved from Armaggedon? Do you celebrate Xmas or any holidays? Are you ready for her non-involvement, and even total repulsion & disgust at you for celebrating them? I'm not asking all the questions you should consider, but believe me, just "choosing" this religion isn't the same as picking another - alot of heavy stuff comes along with it, and you haven't scratched the surface as far as this organization.
Nice to see you here though.
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mamashel
Welcome. I like your name, that's very creative. I agree with you about alot of anger being on this board. The thing is as most everyone else has said is that alot of people have been hurt over the years by the organization. My biggest hurt was not some type of abuse to my family, like some here, even though my daughter got pregnant by a baptized "brother" and nothing was done in any way shape or form to him in the way of diciplinary actions that they follow, but my daughter, who was not baptized and only 17, lost every and all privilages she had, including commenting and field service. She was shunned so terribly that she wanted to give up on life and on God. But that wasnt the hardest part for me. The hardest part for me was to find out after 10 years if total dedication, everything i believed in, I came to find out after much study and much information, that it was all a lie.
Now dont get me wrong, some of their teachings are biblical, but others are just based on what they want to make rules for. Example: men are not aloud to wear beards - can you find anywhere in the bible that says this is some kind of sin and why it should not be? No, i searched it for years.
I wish you well in your marriage, but i truely believe its only a matter of time before they start talking about her and shunning you both if you have not converted to their way of believing. But i will say, i have the utmost respect for you in loving your wife enough to do this for her. That is exactly what i did with my husband. I went because he wanted to go, but inside i knew that it was not for me. We have been out for about 7 months now, but were in and out for about 3 years.
Again, welcome and i wish you well.
Shelley
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pomegranate
trybalance said:
"I will say that once I told the people at the kingdom hall that I was not going to study or become a jehovahs witness they acted happy that I just came to the church with my wife. They all talk to me and I do play sofball with them from time to time."
So, why don't you explain the difference between you doing the above and STILL being accepted by them, and members doing it and being shunned, families torn apart and scorned. Sounds like their justice system is a bit warped doesn't it?
Since you have never become one, you have no clue about any of the real feelings on this forum. You are a man on the outside looking in, voicing your shallow viepoint "NEVER ACCEPTING JW's" as what they LYINGLY portray themselves to be, (God's only true organization on earth) and then YOU, being on the side of judgment have the gall to be questioning the reality of the pain and hurt that MANY if not ALL of these good folks on this forum have felt?
Since you've never accepted the bait (and never will according to your own words), you have never been a fish on their hook. Which means you have no sense of the pain. Any of it.When you're like you, on the outside looking in, you STILL have a choice, and they STILL accept you.
When you're like us, who were on the inside looking out, you have NO CHOICES, and when you do freely choose, they WILL NOT accept you, they deny you even exist, and tear every thing down around you.You have no clue, and I couldn't care less.
Edited by - pomegranate on 14 October 2002 8:25:17
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ashitaka
Well, as for me, I'm angry and bitter because, even after I've left, they continue to try to turn family members against me, spread rumors about me and my wife, and wouldn't say thank you if we saved their lives. They are conditioned to be hate-mongers, but they call it 'keeping the congregation clean'.
My wife and I did nothing "unscriptural", just unpopular.
We decided to elope away from the eyes of her abusive parents, and after that, we were 'marked'. That is a JW term for an unofficial shunning (disfellowshipping, excommunication). We eventually left the church with NO fanfare, but they continued to harass us, and do to this day.
JWs as an org are evil, although various JW indivivuals try to be good, and sometimes succeed. For the most part this is not the rule.
Good luck to you.
ash
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trybalance
Mouthy I dont call it open minded I call it balance. And if my wife turns on me well she won't be the first and that will still be her choice and I will still not blame the religion she chose. That is not in defense of her religion That is balance. I dont care one way or the other about the witnesses. That is truth. The guys at the kingdom hall know that because I speak as plainly to them as I have here. Dont preach to me. I go with my wife and sit there and let them have their say. They have made thier choices and I make mine. My first wife made a choice to have an affair. I did not blame the guy she slept with. He did not steal my woman. She left me for him. The same with this religion. My wife made the choice. If it comes to the point where she feels the need to choose between me and her religion- again that is her choice. The religion did not leave me she did. And even if the religion is the reaon for her having left I would not hang around banging on that all my days. I know therapy. Someone said something about internalizing the problem. I never said that. The problem is already internal. The anger is internal. The attitude is internal. The hate is internal. A therapist takes you to a mirror and gets you to look inside. The therapist does not fuel your pain. She helps you get inside yourself and get past the pain. She helps you deal with it. She does not encourage you to expend vast amounts of energies placing blame elsewhere. We all have choices in life. Yes some choices were made for us before we were born. I often hear white people complaining that the blacks just cant get over it. They just won't move on. Some blacks have moved on rather well. But we now live at a time that no one wants to be responsible for the choices they made. We got to put the blame somewhere else. And from what I see if I sit down and take repsonsibility for my choices I get over things a lot quicker than when I keep pointing to others. In spain they take pride in a good con. They blame the so called victim for falling for the stuff. They force the victim to be responsible for falling for some crazy scam. That is rare today. We get angry when we were had by someone or something. In my opinion we get angry because we were silly enough to fall for the scam. Thats what we are really angry about. If you want to heal you have to look in the mirror. You have to look inside. You are the only thing you can change for sure. That is the way I see it. I will never let a religion or whatever control my life. Once I learn the game I leave it if it is a bad game. I take my losses and run. I amnot faulting anyone here. I just dont understand this thing. I do see what the witnesses have lead some people to do. I know that people shun their families and so forth. I know people let themselves die due to the blood thing. I know that dates have been said and on and on and on. What I dont know is why after learning all this would I want to keep going on and on and on about it. Why keep fueling this thing? Leave it. If I have a hard time getting over it- I get good help. I dont sit around reading the books and tearing them apart and reminding myself on a daily routine what I already know. Where does the need come in to track these people? I go to the kingdom hall, dont believe the stuff and never read any of it. It goes in one ear and out the other. You guys at least some say you spent years in this thing. Then you got out and you still go on and on and on. Is it a witness thing? Are you still uncertain that you should have left? Mouthy I dont know what to say. 75 and still want to talk about it. Like I said I dont understand. And from what I see I am not sure I ever do want to understand. I just never want to be eaten up for the rest of my life with something like this. Thanks again guys. I have no doubt that you all spoke your hearts. I know I spoke my heart.