Keeping it in perspective

by Torn 103 Replies latest jw experiences

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  IslandWoman

  Frank,

  When reading your last post I was hoping to find something I could agree with, I did!

  The best thing that can happen to a person spiritually is to realize that "all" churches are suspect, including JWs.

  Now we have commonality!

  So you gave lots of talks on LI. If you visited the Bayshore Congregation when Br. Tassa was the Congregation Servant I was there, if you visited the Babylon Congregation when Br. xxxx was the Congregation Servant I was there also.

  Freedom to speak our mind and to disagree is worth all the tea in china and much more! It will never be possible for me to go to any church or study group that restricts my right to express my feelings and to disagree. So here I sit, happy and free.

  Thanks for sharing the info about yourself.

  IW
• 

  IslandWoman

  Frank,

  I just read your second post.

  You say you are not a Christian. You are a non-Christian defending a non-Christian corporation as being Christian. There is something ironic about that, but I don't know how to put it into words.

  I wondered if you would pick up on that. Did you never read the Society's articles on women?

  Yes, I defend them because I believe they have a right to worship as they please.

  Again, thanks for the kind words.

  IW
• 

  fjtoth

  Garybuss,

  Thanks for your encouraging comments. You're absolutely right. The only thing that remains constant about the WT Society is continual reform. Sadly, there is never a really true reform. Reforms are meant to make right what is wrong, to make corrections, and to bring about remedies. But that hardly ever happens at the Society. No matter how many so-called reforms there are, everything stays the same.

  Did you hear about the little boy who told his mother that he wanted to be on the governing body when he grew up? His mother said, "That's wonderful! But what made you decide to be a member of the governing body?"

  "Well," the boy replied, "I'll have to attend conventions anyway, and I figure it will be more fun to stand up and say the same old things year after year than to sit still and listen." Frank
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  Shakita

  Frank: Thanks for sharing your experience. It seems that many good people are leaving the Watchtower because of the very fact that this entity is irreformable. It is commendable that some loving, caring individuals are trying to effect a change, but the sad reality is that dictators will always disdain those who they view as mere worthless peons. It has been heartbreaking to me to read of certain ones that were drummed out of the Watchtower because they didn't lick the boots of their masters, the Governing Body. Even though certain members of the local congregation that I attended caused my family deep pain due to their ugly treatment of us, in time the memory of their unloving manner will fade from memory. However, I still deeply love those that I have known for well over 20 years. I certainly don't harbor any ill will towards them. I'm not disfellowshipped or disassociated, but I haven't attended a meeting for about 6 months. Those who leave the Warchtower are labeled as devilish, hateful apostates that have turned on their brothers ala Judas Iscariot. That is an evil lie. I personally don't hate those who are still in this religion. As a matter of fact I still have deep love for them. And it's obvious to me that other individuals that have left this religion feel the same way. I look forward to reading more of your posts.

  Island Woman: I agree that there are still many good people among the JW's. There have been some elders and close friends that have expended themselves in my behalf and my family's behalf unselfishly. I know of several sincere elders that give of themselves selflessly to help others. Although, the caring elders are starting to dry up and more and more elders are being appointed that blindly listen to the Governing Body whether their decisions are right or wrong. If a sincere, loving, and caring elder attempts to support a publisher and that is in conflict with Watchtower rules and regulations, then that elder faces the risk of either being forced to step down or in some cases to be disfellowshipped. Knowing the true history of the Watchtower, rife with lies, deceits, and false prophecies, despite the fact that I love the members of my congregation, I can't in good conscience embrace what I now know to be a lie. Thanks for your insightful posts.

  Mr. Shakita
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  fjtoth

  Mr. Shakita,

  I agree that it's not right to hate JWs. I have many good memories too. If there's any hatred, it comes from them and should not come from us. My mother just turned 87 a few weeks ago but she can't speak to me for fear of being disfellowshiped. Neither can my brother nor my sister. My father died about 3 years ago, and I found out about it a year and a half ago from a Catholic cousin. They even hid it from her for fear she would tell me, and she's a young woman who looked to my father as a replacement for her own father who was killed many years ago. So, that is typical of the way the WT Society breaks up families and makes a mockery out of Christianity by some of its evil teachings and practices. I sincerely appreciate the fine spirit you show and the good common sense contained in your posts.

  Frank
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  DannyBear

  Frank, IW and all,

  It is this very kind of interchange that gives me hope, for forums such at this one.

  There are so few real discussions that carry on here. What usually happens is one or another poster becomes irate, or intolerant of an another........all discussion is lost in a revelry of name calling and overt insults.

  Every person on this board should read this thread.......and appreciate it's value. Not particularly for the stand anyone took, but simply for the joy of good clean conversation!!!

  Frank, you know we do not agree on the bible's inerrancy, yet you do not snub me, or make condescending remarks. I thank you for showing that spirit. Obviously IW and garybuss, Mr Shakita, othe's saw this as well. Good for you. An example that if followed would allow for many to actually converse, not just make one liner snipets or funny little diddy comments, but actually have thier say, without fear of a severe tounge lashing from those with diverse views.

  I really enjoyed this exchange.

  Danny

  edited to add; Another commendation to Frank...(sorry Frank not really trying to toot your horn) but the obvious good manner's you display in actually responding to poster's is to be admired. Nothing is more disheartening than to have a fellow poster, consider your comments as beneath his/her need to respond. Or even worse to not address the person by name, and make a generalized comment about another's viewpoint. imo the ultimate snub.

  Edited by - DannyBear on 16 November 2002 0:55:49
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  fjtoth

  Danny,

  Here's how I feel:

  JWs and some who admire them assert that leaving the organization always ends up in spiritual disaster. We know that isn't true, though obviously some exprience extreme hurt, bitterness, rage, and other negative emotions due to great disappointment. Sometimes those feelings push a person into beliefs or a lifestyle that are strange or even disturbing to others.

  I'm convinced that any downward spiral usually begins within the organization, not after a person leaves. As with everything else, the organization refuses to see itself as the blame. So, as disheartened as I sometimes get when I read what intolerant and insulting posters are saying, I live in hope that someday their disposition will change for the better.

  Since leaving JWs, I've had my bad moments too. I said things I now regret. Time heals. We generally grow mentally and emotionally as we recover. The best thing we can do for one another is show the kindness and love that might have been missing since long before the other person made the decision or got the marching orders to leave the organization.

  I tend to think that most of us in this thread are of that frame of mind or similar.

  So, I appreciate your kind words. I really do. I'm with you in feeling that this type of exchange is far more enjoyable and beneficial than mud-slinging, snobbery, anger and other examples of poor manners.

  I can't foresee to what extent I'll be able to continue participating in any thread. I have a job that's very time-consuming some weeks and I'm left with little time even to enjoy a full meal or to catch some good sleep. Hopefully it won't always be that way.

  Thanks again.

  Frank
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  trudy

  I've been reading your posts and I am thrilled to see how many have begun to open their eyes to what religion has 'done for mankind'.

  What did 'my religion do for me?' It kept me from searching and asking God for Truth because I was told I already had it.

  It kept me from 'trusting GOD and what he has written in his word and the word's of his SON Christ Jesus. Instead, I was pressured to trust in men where no salvation belong.

  I was born and raised a Jehovah's Witness. All through the years, I put up a strong fight for what I understood to be 'Truth'. When at the age of six, I repeatedly would be sent out of the class room because I would not salute our nations flag and I still would not salute it today, even though I am no longer associated with the JW Organization. In my heart, I appreciated the 'truths' taught to my by the 'members of this organization who reminded Christians to obey the truths taught in the Bible. Yet, I came to the conclusion, later in life, that something was very wrong with the Organization. I dismissed this feeling, still believing the Organization was 'the truth'. I owe this to my lack of studying God's word, even though I had the Bible in my hands so very often, thinking I was a Bible student, but now I realize I was not. I came to realize the JW Organization taught enough 'truth' to keep me trusing this religions leaders. Yet, our leader is Christ Jesus. How many times have we parroted these words of the Society? Yet, we don't dare Come to him and serve Jesus for if we do, we quickly find we don't fit into the doctrines of the Watchtower. They claim the door to God is closed in 1930's. But was it? How do we know? Did God say so in the Bible? Or is it simply the human reasonings of men?

  The book of Revelation 2:24 "keep hold of what you have until I come" I had to go back to learn what Christ's disciples had before he came and it was all the teachings of Jesus as well his Apostles who make up the foundation of the congregation. I realized I had to tear my old foundation down and rebuild my faith. For I had built my faith upon the foundation of the Watchtower Organizaion. And here was a scripture which clearly told me to hold tight to what Christ had taught until he comes. It is absolutley clear Christ has not COME yet! So who or what man has the right and authority to close the door to Christ? And if you read (Revelation 3:11-12) The Spirit says "I am coming soon, KEEP HOLD OF WHAT YOU HAVE so that no one can deprive you of your crown! I will make who is victorious a pillar in the temple of my God." And so, as I continued to study the book of Revelation I realized no one is appointed as anything until Christ comes to announce who comes off victorious. It is presumpeous to say the least to claim to be a Governing body before Christ comes. Even Apostle Paul didn't make this claim! He too, waited for Jesus and the reward he would then recieve for being faithful and victorious in his faith. And besides, we can open that door! (Rev 3:20) "So be earnest and repent, I stand knocking at the door, IF anyone LISTENS to MY VOICE and OPENS THE DOOR, I will be his guest and dine with him." After reading these scriptures I realized I was being spiritually ROBBED of My inheritance!! For how in heaven's name can I possibly INHERIT the kingdom when I am not related to GOD? I must become an adopted spiritual Son (or daughter) in order to be in line for an inheritance. And I had to conquer before I could recieve any reward from Christ Jesus. Have the Gov.body conquered? What have they conquered that I haven't? I then proceeded to look up all the scriptures pertaining to the word, CONQUER in my Concordance and was it a real eye opener! I recommend all JW to do this and study the word, TRUTH and LIGHT as well. also the word CALLS, CALLING ...you will be amazed what you find, believe me!

  I love our heavenly Father with all my heart and my fellow man and hope I always will. It pains me, very much, to know how we all have been mislead. And who is my adversary? Is it my neighbor? Or those who are still in the Organization who now do not speak to me? Rather, the Bible clearly says ,"Satan who roars about like a lion seeking to devour someone" Those who are still trapped within a religious organization, like birds in a net or lost fish in a deadly pit, have truly put their faith in men to give them 'truth'. The Bible is clear as to where we find wisdom. After asking my heavenly Father for the truth, I quickly found the scriture in John 14:6, just as so many of you have done.

  Jesus said,"I am the Way, the TRUTH and LIFE"

  From then I read the disfiguration of Jesus and took to heart God's words when he said,"This is my Son, the beloved, LISTEN TO HIM"

  It was then I realized God was calling me to Go to Christ for TRUTH, and I had to obey. Jesus said to 'obey God as ruler rather than men.' And why look! So much of what Jesus said appears in Proverbs.

  (Proverbs 2:2-15)"My son, if you receive my words, And store my commands within you, Inclining your ear to wisdom, And applying your mind to reason' If you appeal to intelligence, And lift up your voice to reason; If you seek her as silver, And search for her as for hidden treasures, Then will you understand reverence for the LORD, And will discover the knowledge of God; For the LORD gives wisdom, Out of his mouth come knowledge and reason; He has help in store for the upright, He is a shield to those who walk honestly; He guards the paths of justice, And protects the way of his poius ones; Then you will understand rectitude and justice, And will keep to every good course; For when wisdom finds a 'welcome within you, And knowledge becomes a pleasure to you, Discretion will watch over you, Reason will guard you...saving you from the way of evil men, from men who use perverse speech; Who leave the paths of uprightness, To walk in ways of darkness; who delight in doing evil, Who are crooked in their ways And tortuous in their paths..."

  (Proverb 3:1)"My son, forget not my teaching, But keep my commands in mind; For a long and happy life, with abundant prosperity, will they bring to you.Let not kindness and good faith leave you;Fasten them around you neck, Write them on the tablet of your mind; So will you find favor and good will In the eyes fo God and man. Trust in the LORD with all your heart, And rely not on your own understanding; In all your ways acknowledge him, And he will make straight your paths.

  Be not wise in your own eyes, Revere the LORD and withdraw from evil

  (verse 21)"My son, keep guard on wisdom and discretion, Let them not slip from your eyes. They will be life to you. And an ornament round your neck. Then, you may go your way in security, without striking your foot on a stone; When you rest, you will not be afraid, When you lie down, your sleep will be sweet; You will fear no sudden terror, Nor the sortm that falls on the wicked; For the LORD will be our confidnece and will keep your foot from the snare."

  Did you notice discretion means life for us? So the wise and discreet should be found in ALL of us! Not just a few men. It is a requirement for a Godly man.

  I thank my Father in every way, for opening my eyes and ears to truly LISTEN to God's Son, who speaks for GOD. He truly is GOD'S word.

  Remember the words of Jesus.....found throughout all his teachings:

  .(Rev 3:4)"He who is victorious will be clothes thus, in white clothing, and I will not erase his name from the book of life but I will acknowledge him as mine in the presence of my Father and his angels. Let Everyone who can HEAR, Listen to what the Spirit says to the Congregations (churches)

  Who are Christ's brothers? Matthew 12:50 "ANYONE who does the will of my Father is the same my brother, sister and my mother." Andso I ask you, were we all not told we were doing God's will? Why has this religious organizaiton made separations of Christ;s sheep? I believe this is wicked and I cannot understand how anyone can stay within it's membership unless they are absolutley mislead or are fearful of what others think of them. Christ Jesus said, 'they will hate you because they hated me." He said,"Pick up your torture stake and follow me.....'..didn't say, follow a religious organization. I had to ask myself, "Who really is my leader? I chose Christ Jesus and began to walk on his path.

  May our Father bless your search for hidden spiritual treasures,

  Warm Christian love,'

  trudy
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  IslandWoman

  Frank,

  You wrote:

  I'm convinced that any downward spiral usually begins within the organization, not after a person leaves.

  Are you speaking from personal experience? If so, then I understand why you would make that statement. I would hope that you would also understand that from personal experience I know of brothers and sisters who left the Org. while still quite strong and active. They have since come to believe that the Bible is not inerrant. This had nothing to do with their spiritual strength before leaving the Watchtower, it had to do with a broader outlook and an indepth, non-partisan study of the Bible.

  Blanket statements are rarely accurate.

  IW
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  fjtoth

  IslandWoman,

  Where's the blanket statement??? I think you should have noticed that I said "usually" and not "always." If you have an argument with that, then the blanket statement is yours, not mine.

  Frank