Keeping it in perspective

by Torn 103 Replies latest jw experiences

fjtoth

DannyBear,
While I can't agree with you that God hasn't used a book to reveal himself, I think it's more honest of you to say so than it is of the WT Society to say that it believes and teaches the Bible when it really doesn't. It uses the Bible to support its theories instead of conforming its teachings to what the book actually says.
I agree with the scholar who advocated a university education for everyone but who said a knowledge of the Bible without a college course is more valuable than a college course without the Bible. I've also discovered that prayer according to the Bible's pattern is far more beneficial than prayer without the Bible's guidance. Whether they viewed it as divine or human, many of the world's greatest leaders have acknowledged that the book is the greatest compilation of noble thoughts and deeds ever brought together and, as such, is the greatest single instrument for popular education ever devised.
Without the Bible it would take more than a lifetime to learn about life. No other source tells us so many intimate things about kings, peasants, housewives, soldiers and servants. I'm convinced God saw to it that we would find ourselves in the Bible no matter who or what we are. Your own life is reflected in many of its pages, and so is mine.
The book teaches children how to behave. It's one of the best weapons with which to subdue crime and delinquency among youths. The young boy and girl trained in the teachings of the Bible have a moral background that serves as a compass for everyday living. They know the difference between right and wrong, good and evil. And they're better able to conquer the temptations of life. That can't be said of so many today who have been trained to see no harm in all the many evil influences that now pervade society and it's culture.
Many of our forebears realized that we get a better race of statesmen when we familiarize our children with the book's characters and personalities. Without its wisdom we produce mere politicians who are motivated by greed, selfishness, corrupt policy and a biased party.
Generally, man's greatest task is to earn a living. There's no joy in getting by on the job, doing as little as we have to. A lot of pleasure is derived from doing more than we have to. Long before modern psychologists discovered it, the Bible spelled out the truth that "if anyone demands you to go one mile, go with him two miles." Even in such simple matters, the Bible has displayed glorious and appropriate wisdom for all the millenniums that it's been in existence.
The Bible contains two proverbs that persons of faith should never forget. The first is "Man does not live by bread alone," and the second is "Where there is no vision, the people perish." The food better than bread and the vision better than speculative philosophy are provided in the Bible.
I think it's more than safe to say that persons who don't often read the Bible have no idea what they're missing.
Frank
fjtoth

IslandWoman,
Your definition of judging doesn't line up with any dictionary I know. I don't know you, but from what you wrote I would have to conclude that you never were a JW and that you know very little about them.
It isn't judging to say JWs accept "the anointed" as God's channel. That's a fact of life within their organization, not something I made up.
The same is true of their acceptance of "the anointed" as "God's true prophet-like organization."
It's also a fact and not a matter of judgment to say a person is acting hypocritical by pretending to view "the anointed" as "the faithful and discreet slave class" while behind their back expressing disagreement with them. It's also cowardly since Torn knows he would be thrown out of the organization if he dared to speak his mind before other JWs.
So, I fail to see your point. I spoke the truth about JWs, things they as well as their opposers know is the truth, but you choose to classify it as judging. Surely you don't view lies as preferable to the truth. Or do you?
The only other conclusion I can come to is that you didn't read carefully what I wrote and that you assumed I personally believe as JWs do about their "anointed class."
Frank
IslandWoman

Frank,
It isn't sincerely honest for him to say he is still a JW when he begins to believe and teach contrary to the "faithful and discreet slave class" of basic WT theology. It amounts to living a lie. In fact, it's living as a brazen hypocrite before the eyes of God. It is a contradiction to expect that a person living in such a way can have God's blessing and be a source of truth that leads to salvation.
To call those who remain in the Watchtower while disagreeing with some of the Watchtower teachings and practices "a brazen hypocrite before the eyes of God", is not judging them? How could anyone pretend to know what is in a person's heart or whether or not God will bless their efforts to somehow encourage change for the better? To call them "a brazen hypocrite before the eyes of God" is imo, wrong.
Some xJWs want to "convert" others to their own thinking and their own ways, emulating the Watchtower's "Our way or the highway" mentality. People must make up their own minds and live by their own consciences. If someone believes there is good among the Witnesses, if they believe that God is with them but that the Watchtower has gone the way of ancient Israel and needs correcting by God what is wrong with that? I am not aware of any Christian religion that is without fault, and there is no Christian study group that has all the answers or can without a doubt prove it has God's spirit as manifested in the first century among the early Christians.
There are many JWs who want change and are in their way trying to work for change, to encourage the love taught by Jesus, to work at somehow effecting change at the top of the Watchtower. These people love God, they love their brothers and their neighbors. The last I heard this was the criteria for being considered a disciple of Christ: love. To say that an individual is a hypocrite, is not blessed by God and will not be used by God simply because they choose to remain a Witness while working to bring changes to their religion that will benefit their brothers is again imo, wrong. Some other Christians might even call it unChristian!
The xJW world may be right for some but not all JWs. Until the day comes when an xJW Christian is able to act as a "Christ" to those people by showing them a religion that incorporates all the good of the JW religion without the bad, no xJW Christian has the right to say these people should leave their home simply to live in the "street."
I've had much contact with the Christian churches in my area, none reflect the teachings of the Christ in all their doctrine and policies, in all their teachings from the pulpit. All fall short. There is racial prejudice, class distinctions, pressure to conform in attire, politics, social agendas etc. They too use the Bible for their own purposes, they twist it to make it obey them rather than the other way around. If asked, most would claim their church is different than other churches, their church is loving, and follows the Christ. They believe this because that's what they want to believe, they live in their own comfortable little mists.
There are good individuals in Christianity but there is no good or perfect place to go to. If some JWs can bring about change and retain their home for themselves so much the better. I wish them well and pray that God will help them to do so.
IW
fjtoth

IslandWoman,
I understand your point of view and go along with it to an extent. However, I hope you also see mine. In this forum I haven't been dealing with someone who merely disagrees in his own heart with what the WT teaches. It's been with someone who has publicly stated several major points of disagreement he has with the Society. He has now thrown in his support with someone who is pretending to be a JW but who has a website that says the WT Society is wrong on many counts. Yet, both profess to believe that JWs are God's "organization." I see that as living a lie. No persons in their right minds would dare to challenge an organization they accept and publicly declare as belonging to God. Otherwise, as Gamaliel said, they may find themselves actually fighting against God himself. Either the organization is God's, as they claim, or it is of men and subject to scrutiny and even criticism. Either it is directed 100 percent by God, or God gives no direction to it at all or possibly only when he feels in the mood. They can't have their cake and eat it too.
I really don't think you're being fair at all with other churches. Very few of them, if any, claim to be God's one and only organization. Neither do they take the strong measures the WT Society does to discipline those who merely have doubts about what their church teaches. The difference is that you can be a Presbyterian and doubt and even express yourself against predestination. You can be a Seventh-Day Adventist and either accept or deny the Trinity. You can be a Roman Catholic and let it be known that you don't believe the pope is infallible. But don't let a JW dare let it be known that he or she doubts that blood transfusions are wrong or that the Society is wrong about 1914, etc.
I think it's very sad indeed that some JWs and ex-JWs really believe that the WT Society is reformable. There is no scriptural basis for such thinking. Likening the Society to ancient Israel is merely wishful dreaming at best and deliberate blindness at the worst. It is a distortion of what the Bible states about those who fall away from the truth. They and the Society point to the apostasy that infiltrated the congregations even while the apostles were alive, and they almost gleefully use that fact of history as the basis for condemning all other religions but their own. Yet they can do nothing but speak glowingly of their own organization as being God's even when it's history shows it to be deceived, treacherous, cunning and arrogant in many respects. The congregation is meant to be a pillar and support of the truth. If the WT Society was actually fulfilling that role of the church, those who publicly find fault with it could most certainly not have the truth or the blessing of God.
If the WT Society has God's spirit and is his instrument, then it should compare favourably with Jesus who spoke only the truth. Those who are its members should compare favourably with Jesus' disciples who acknowledged that he came from God and did nothing wrong. If the Society is indeed like Jesus and is God's chosen instrument, then those members who criticize it can be identified with none other than Judas Iscariot who betrayed his Lord and teacher. Judas was a blatant hypocrite and so are they -- if -- only if the WT Society is what it claims itself to be!
It isn't love that motivates people to try changing the WT Society. It's merely a matter of pride. Jesus said we share in the sins of such an organization if we don't get out -- if we don't flee! Babylon the Great is irreformable and so is the WT Society as a part of it. Anyone who disagrees with Christ is selfishly relying on his or her own preference instead of being lovingly obedient to the Master. As I see it, according to the way you've explained things, you have made Christ himself the most unchristian of all persons. You would accuse him of having people live out on "the street" because he tells them to flee.
You've accused me of being contradictory, of setting myself up as judge, of reading people's hearts, of being wrong, and of being unchristian. I pray your eyes will be opened to see that there are good scriptural reasons why I've written as I have.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that all churches fall short of what genuine Christianity should be. I hope you can also see that JWs fall short just as much, if not more so, than many others. What makes the WT Society worse is its exercise of arrogant dominance over the lives of its blinded people. I wish in your lifetime you had been given the opportunity to see but a fraction of what I have seen of the damage the WT Society has done to the lives of countless numbers of its people. Then you would know with certainty, even as they know, that they are lying through their teeth when they boast about being God's unique organization. Jesus would condemn them just as much as he condemned the scribes and Pharisees for such a judgmental and self-righteous attitude.
Frank
Shakita

Torn: I can see that you're someone that deeply loves the bible, our Heavenly, Father, and his Son. I'm sure that was your motivation for posting your concerns over the 1914 dilemma. The "new light" that the Watchtower brought out on "this generation", was just too hard to swallow. Although you may think that the posters here are trying to convert you to their way of thinking, I personally think that it is another issue that motivated us to respond to you.
Most of us here are not spring chickens. Many of us have spent decades in the Watchtower and so we have a better insight than someone that is relatively young. I have been a Jehovah's Witness for about 25 years. I was the one that always enjoyed deep study of the bible because I wanted to know the mind of our Heavenly Father so as to imitate him. I frequently encountered "opposers", born agains, and so called "apostates", either in the door-to-door work or on the job and I would love trying to show them from the bible the truth concerning God and his Son and many other issues. If anyone was a zealous diehard Witness, that was me. I did everything by the book and I expected my family to do the same. But what I didn't realize that I was really zealous for a manmade religion run by sinful men. In reality I was giving adoration and worship to the faithful and discreet slave and not to our Heavenly Father. Because I was so strict with myself and my family I caused all of us a great deal of pain that was so unnnecessary. If I had it to do all over again I would never become a Jehovah's Witness. The irony is that if I was given true information concerning this religion from the start I would never have been baptized nor would I have expected my family to get baptized. I sacrificed what should have been a normal life for men that have no trouble casting you out in an instant if you don't cowtow to their every whim.
So Torn, our true motivation in responding to you is to help you to avoid the deep pain that we have all experienced at the hands of this religion. We care enough about people, if they will just listen to us, to speak up so that you don't repeat the same mistake that we all made. This religion is like a safety net. Take the safety net away and there is fear, and panic, and confusion, and the mind numbing realization that we gave our life, not to God, but to a deceitful religion, run by deceitful men. Since opening my eyes I have discovered that so many other people, other than Jehovah's Witnesses, truly love God and his Son, and are doing their utmost to live their lives according to God's word.
You see Torn, when I took away the safety net, the Jehovah's Witnesses, I experienced all the emotions described above along with deep depression and despair. Why? Because I was under the delusion that faithfulness to the Watchtower meant faithfulness to God. But that's a falsehood. When all the extraneous layers were stripped away and I was standing raw and exposed before my Heavenly Father, that's when I finally began to grow as a person and continue to do so with His help. We are trying to save you Torn from those destructive emotions that are sure to come if you don't listen to what we're saying to you.
Remember Torn, when Jesus talked about how being in union with him meant eating his flesh and drinking his blood? Many were offended by what Jesus said and left him. Notice what is said at John6:66-69: "Owing to this many of his disciples went off to the things behind and would no longer walk with him. Therefore Jesus said to the twelve: You do not want to go also, do you? Simon Peter answered him: "Lord, WHOM shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life; and we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God." You see Torn, Peter said to WHOM shall we go away to. He didn't say where am I going to go as some Witnesses may say if they hear someone is contemplating leaving the Jehovah's Witnesses. We go to Jesus, not any manmade religion or organization.
To all the posters that contributed to this subject, I enjoyed your well thought out reasonings. Thanks to FJToth, JT, and others, I always get a fresh perspective when I read others viewpoints.
So Torn, use your God given reasoning ability and make the effort to see the good in others. Don't believe that everyone that is not a Jehovah's Witness is of the devil or at the very least "worldly." Let God's word guide you, not opinions of imperfect men. Don't make the mistake I made in being a fanatic, but be a reasonable person that always strives to see the goodness in others in imitation of Jesus Christ. It's my hope that you will find "true freedom" in Christ and not the slavery of a religious organization.
Mr. Shakita
fjtoth

Mr. Shakita,
Thanks for so kindly expressing an appeal that should touch and warm anyone's heart as it did mine.
Frank
IslandWoman

Frank,
I was associated with the Witnesses for over forty years, yes I have seen my share of wrongs in that religion. I do not though share the view of many who feel there was little or nothing good there. While it has problems, yes big problems, it still serves a need and it is a home to many who without it would fall prey to those who would ruin their faith in the Bible and in even the existence of God himself.
It is my opinion that the JW religion draws to itself many people who are as Jesus noted, childlike and willing to sacrifice everything for God. Because Christendom's sins are so great, the Witness religion does not find it hard at all to convince people the "Great Whore" is just that. Therefore most JWs who join as adults leave behind a former religion which the Watchtower easily proves cannot be approved by God.
What happens when after being convinced by the Watchtower that Christendom is a lie, they then learn that their beloved "truth" is also just a sham? For some there is no where to go, now all churches are suspect. The house of cards starts falling down, the Bible itself becomes victim to those on the Web who skillfully remove it's raiment of inerrancy and after that some even fall prey to the teachings of atheists.
I believe the Witness religion if reformed would serve its people as well as any other Christian Church. It teaches the Bible, God and Christ.
You wrote:
It isn't love that motivates people to try changing the WT Society. It's merely a matter of pride.
Have you spoken with those brothers at Bethel and in the congregations who are trying to effect change? How do you know for certain it is not due to love for God or brother?
By the way, I did not mean to personally accuse you of being unChristian. I said that some other Christians might view your stand as unChristian. I am not a Christian.
Thanks for your kind response.
IW
garybuss

Frank,

I have appreciated reading your posts and I am impressed with your intellect and manner. Thank you for posting here.

You wrote:

I think it's very sad indeed that some JWs and ex-JWs really believe that the WT Society is reformable.
It seems to me the Watch Tower Corporation has sold the concept of their own reform above all others. "Re-form", to form again. The Watch Tower Conglomerate's almost constant change (reform) is unlike any religion I have studied of it's size. About the only things that remain constants are the dis-beliefs like hell, soul, and trintiy, which are easy to maintain and sell as beliefs.

While I was a group member we used to look forward to the latest publication to see what the latest installment of "reform" was. We drove to the assemblies to hear the latest "reform". The Watch Tower Corporation has publishes volumes on the subject of their own "reform". Their Proclaimers book is nothing but a history of their re-form. The appointment doctrine is a "reform" teaching.

When Witnesses are dissatisfied with some element in the Corporate structure the Circuit Overseers and the elders encourage them to wait on Jehovah. What they are really saying it to wait for "re-form". Wait until the Society "reforms" and takes a form that is more to your liking, reforms and is just, reforms and is honest, reforms and allows blood medical treatment, reforms and quits shunning, and on and on . . .
The only need for a spirit channeler, like the Watch Tower Corporation owners claim to be, is to channel the reform. If reform ended, the Watch Tower Corporation would, according to their own literature, have no purpose.

All the teaching of Armageddon offers is the reform of the earth . . . an earth that the Watch Tower Society will control and cultivate and reform.

So is it any wonder a current or former Witness would look for reform of the Watch Tower Society? Your comments please.

Thanks again for your insight and rational comments. My best wishes to you.

gb

The Way I See it http://www.freeminds.org/buss/buss.htm
fjtoth

IslandWoman,
Thanks for your thoughts. I think you and I are more in agreement than it seemed at first.
I see from another thread that in the early '70s your husband worked in the linotype dept. I was in the same dept. from '58 to about '67. He probably knows many folks that I know. In the early 70s I worked in the shipping dept. at 30 C.H. Later I worked in the Gilead Office and in close proximity to several GB members. My wife, who has since died, worked in the sewing room as a seamstress.
I also noted that you live on Long Island. I'm sure I gave at least 3 or 4 "public talks" at all the L.I. KHs while I was at Bkln. I left Bethel and JWs in '94, after serving for almost 40 years between the Bkln and Canadian offices.
I agree with you that it would be a mistake to say there is hardly any good in the JW organization. But I don't see the great danger you seem to see as facing those who leave. As a JW I was a keen Bible student. I still am, but even more so. I have ex-JW, ex-WW Church of God, ex-7th Day Adventist and ex-Christadelphian friends who are also very much into the Bible. I wasn't damaged spiritually by leaving JWs. In fact, my life has never been better. My prayers receive better answers, and my relationship is now with God and Christ instead of to human leaders who haven't got the slightest clue as to the Bible's meaning for individual Christians.
With all due respect, I have to tell you that you're greatly mistaken in thinking that a person's faith in God and the Bible is put to a severe test outside of the JW organization. What I think you fail to realize is where the Society gets all the really good information that it publishes. My eyes were opened when I discovered how much reading and study of Christendom's books is engaged in by members of the GB and writing dept. Surely your husband knows that all Bethelites have access to the home library which contains thousands of books by non-JWs. If any Bethelites gave more interesting and above average talks, you now know why.
The Society doesn't want its members to do such reading for themselves for fear of losing members. It's as simple as that. You might be amazed to see how many churches and seminaries are far ahead of the Society in knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures. The Society generally borrows (steals???) from them without giving honest credit where credit is due.
I don't disagree that there's a lot of falsehood and hypocrisy outside the JW ranks. But I can assure you that there are many decent pastors and millions of other Christians who are just as dismayed and disturbed about that as any JW. The difference is that JWs make a blanket accusation against all religious teachers and students outside their own organization, as if all Bible teachers and students who are not JWs are modern-day Pharisees. The leaders of the Society know better. So do those who regularly write articles and books for the Society. By making such false accusations, they are simply biting the hand that feeds them, and yet they do it with no shame. So we need have no doubts as to who are among the real Pharisees.
You say JWs draw childlike people who are willing to make big sacrifices for God. But I don't see them in hospitals. In nursing homes. In clothing drives. In soup kitchens. Or anywhere else where the real needs of people are being met by those whom JWs condemn as Babylonish. So, I think you've got a JW mindset on what it means to serve God and show love for one's neighbour. Someday you will have to face up to the fact that JWs are not serving God. They are serving an organization that basically has a false gospel. Jesus did not return in 1914. To say so is to make a mockery of what he actually taught about his return. Jesus did not in any way express his approval of JWs in 1919 either. That WT doctrine is a myth and a fraud. Their "zeal" is reminiscent of those Jews Paul accused of lacking accurate knowledge.
Again I have to say you are mistaken about what people leave behind when they become JWs. They are not people who are disgusted with Christendom's "sins." Generally they are lonely people in need of friends. People who are happy with their church do not become JWs. In fact, many of them are disturbed by JW tactics. Those who think Christianity through are aware that, while their own church may not be perfect, JWs represent an extremism in Christianity that gives the Bible and its God a bad name. JWs claim they're the only ones preaching the Kingdom. But is the Kingdom the first thing that honest-hearted people think of when they hear "Jehovah's Witnesses"? Not at all. Most people think of door-to-door nuisances, blood transfusions, flag-saluting, and now child-molesting. People have only the foggiest idea of what the Kingdom means when JWs use the word.
Has the WT Society convinced anybody that other religions are not approved by God. JWs dreamily like to think so. But the fact is the JW religion itself is not approved by God, and they find that hard to believe. So why should they expect non-JWs to feel any different about their own religion?
The best thing that can happen to a person spiritually is to realize that "all" churches are suspect, including JWs. Satan is the one responsible for breaking mankind up into schisms and sects. The WT Society is just one more of his clever inventions to turn people away from God and Christ and to focus them on man.
fjtoth

IslandWoman,
Sorry, I clicked the wrong button and sent my post without finishing it.
I just want to add that for several years I was among those who tried to effect changes for the better in the WT organization. Some of those who were thrown out due to conscientious love of God and the Bible were among my best friends. I don't say that any of them lacked love. Not at all. But time is up. The Society has had plenty of chances to change for the better. Instead, it has become ever more resistant to change. It is not only unloving to remain in it when a person sees such writing on the wall, it is foolish as well. For the sake of new ones and old who continue to be blinded by WT falsehood, love is shown by walking out and shaking the dust off one's feet.
You say you are not a Christian. You are a non-Christian defending a non-Christian corporation as being Christian. There is something ironic about that, but I don't know how to put it into words.
At any rate, be assured that I understand where you're coming from as a former JW, and I appreciate your willingness to at least consider the other side of the story.
Frank

Keeping it in perspective

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