Keeping it in perspective

by Torn 103 Replies latest jw experiences

  • garybuss
    garybuss

    Welcome Torn,

    The true believer member's ability to effectively use the learned "component strategy" is one reason the Watch Tower Publishing Corporation is still in business with Jehovah's Witnesses as their tax free religious front after all their unrealized expectations.

    The component strategy assumes the believer will buy into the lesson that taught the parts do not equal the whole. That individual pieces can be wrong but the pieces can still fit and work. Like a car that has no tires and no engine but is still seen as a good car by the owners.

    Torn's post highlights several fallacies to me.

    Fallacy # one: Dis-beliefs are seen as beliefs. Dis-belief in the trinity is not a belief, it is a dis-belief. Dis-belief in hell fire is not a belief, it is a dis-belief. Dis-belief in immortality of the soul is not a belief, it is a dis-belief. Dis-belief in a heavenly reward is not a belief, it is a dis-belief. Dis-belief in the great crowd in heaven is not a belief, it is a dis-belief. Without a counter-believing group these do not exist.

    Fallacy # 2: Components are separate. If one component in the chronology of the Watch Tower Publishing Corporation is in error, the whole thesis is in error. It all hinges on the teaching that Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 to begin a progressive return, appointed the Watch Tower Publishing Corporation as his / God's channel in 1918/1919 and the seven trumpets of Revelation were the seven Jehovah's Witness District assemblies from 1922 to 1928, starting with Cedar Point, Ohio and ending with Detroit, Michigan.

    Fallacy # 3: This makes sense: GOD is the creator, but since he only created Michael, and Michael created everything else, ("all other things") that would seem to make Michael the real creator, but only in a sense, since Michael is Jesus and Michael said to Satan, "the Lord rebuke you" makes the Lord powerful over Satan, however when Michael had to throw Satan out of heaven in 1914 he had to do battle with his own creations, Satan and His Angels, and in 1918 when he selected Joe Rutherford to be his earthly channel and had to put the truth in the mind of Joe so Joe could write the truth in the Watch Tower and build Beth Sarim.

    All this would be hard to understand if it were not for the "salvation" doctrine, which is easy to understand since the living evildoers will all be made dead at Armageddon and the dead evildoers will be made alive at Armageddon, thus the living sinners will die and the dead sinners will live, except the dead who are made alive will not really be made alive again but when they die God kinda makes a sort of computer chip, in a sense, of all the information in their brains, like their memories, thoughts, and personality and keeps this stored in heaven and the Angels that don't join up with Satan help and then after Armageddon, God makes a perfect replica body, and somehow inserts this memory chip in the perfect replica body and then he will judge that new creation of the old person who was dead but is now alive, sort of, by how he treats the anointed who are mostly dead but are represented by the Governing Body, who are not inspired but only receive Divine direction, and by how well he follows the directions of the Organization and if he sins he dies.

    To survive Armageddon, the only way is to be serving God in the only Organization that has the truth, Jehovah's Witnesses. The truth is defined as the current teachings of the Governing Body which largely consist of denying their own past teachings and condemning views that are held by other groups that the Governing Body will someday adopt as their "new light" and "the truth". Serving God is defined as attending the five weekly meetings of Jehovah's Witnesses, reading all of the weeks lessons before the meetings, including underlining the answer to the questions at the bottom of the pages in the paragraphs with a red marker, (yellow highlighter is optional as long as it is used in moderation) answering any questions you may come up with by yourself, while you keep those questions secret and to yourself, by looking up the proper subject headings in the Index published by the Society and referencing to the proper Watchtower article while attending meetings for field service and going out in cars to try to recruit new members into the group and to solicit contributions to be turned into the group leaders in exchange for Watchtower publications that members paid for at the Kingdom Hall using the voluntary donation arrangement that was adopted after the Society failed in their attempt to defend Jimmy Swaggert in the Supreme Court of California after the Superior Authorities fell out of love with him and charged him with avoiding sales tax on literature sales and all Witnesses must do this or they die.

    Loyalty to "Jehovah's Organization" is important since surviving Armageddon is contingent on how well we vindicate Jehovah's name which is really YHWH and pronounced Yahweh by most Biblical scholars only since that was changed to sanctify and it now is to exalt Jehovah's Name, not to vindicate anymore, and to announce the kingdom that was set up in heaven in 1914 after Jesus returned invisibly in 1874 and again in 1914 for the separating of the sheep and the goats by selling Watchtower publications door to door and then in 1995 this was changed to not separating the sheep from the goats but to require all Jehovah's Witnesses to believe that the separating of the sheep and the goats will be a future event to begin after the start of the Great Tribulation except that Jesus had to actually start his judging of the sheep and the goats in 33 AD and that he only picked 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses and the number was filled in 1935 and then the earth was going to be used for the testing ground for all the re-created dead sinners and Jehovah's Witnesses for 1000 years because this all ties into the date of 1914 which was arrived at by Nelson Barbour by adding 30 years to William Miller's failed Apocalypse expectation date of 1844 which was arrived at by adding a year to the previously failed date of 1843, to arrive at 1874, which when the end didn't come, he added 40 more years to come up with 1914 which Charles Taze Russell adopted and changed to 1915 when the Apocalypse didn't come in 1914 then to 1918 when it didn't come in 1915, then he died.

    This is all so simple that a child could understand especially in view of the fact that the seven trumpets of Revelation were the seven Jehovah's Witness District assemblies from 1922 to 1928, starting with Cedar Point, Ohio and ending with Detroit, Michigan, only they weren't called Jehovah's Witnesses then but since Jehovah picked them in 1918 he waited until 1931 to give them his name while the generation living in 1914 and of the age of understanding, about 12 or 15, when World War One broke out, except it had been breaking out for a number of years before 1914, meaning that the generation that saw 1914 would by no means pass away before Armageddon started and "by no means" indicates that the majority would be living and never die since Jesus told Joe Rutherford that "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" by an angel and Joe wrote a book about the dead Princes, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and others would be resurrected to the earth in 1925 and live in a house he built for them in 1929 in San Diego, California except he lived in it himself because he thought the start of World War Two would be the beginning of Armageddon and then he died.

    Usually this is best understood by believing the truth as Nathan Knorr and Fred Franz wrote about it in the Watchtower since they knew that service was the answer and that six thousand years since Adam and Eve ended in 1975 and that maybe, might, could, should be the start of Armageddon but they don't remember writing anything about 1975 and they couldn't say for sure when Eve was created and besides so many were going to prison because they were loyal to God by refusing alternative service to active military duty and no one was taking organ transplants or buying Girl Scout Cookies and then they died. Sometimes the truth comes as flashes of light and the vaccinations, and organ transplants are now all okay and the drafted boys don't go to prison but stay at home to be elders and pioneers instead of going to jail and the sheep are waiting and the goats are waiting too and the generation of 1914 waited too, then they died.
    http://www.freeminds.org/buss/truth.htm

    gb

    PS: If I made any mistakes please let me know. Thanks!

    The Way I See it http://www.freeminds.org/buss/buss.htm

  • outnfree
    outnfree

    Gary,

    in exchange for Watchtower publications that members paid for at the Kingdom Hall using the voluntary donation arrangement that was adopted after the Society failed in their attempt to defend Jimmy Swaggert in the Supreme Court of California after the Superior Authorities fell out of love with him and charged him with avoiding sales tax on literature sales and all Witnesses must do this or they die.

    While hoping that my use of yellow marker was judiciously applied, I must point out your error -- all U.S. Witnesses (and those who live in countries where the WTSociety's charitable organization status is in doubt) "must do this or they die."

    Torn,

    Welcome to the Board. I have been where you are now, and it took me another year or so to disassociate myself from what I now view as a corrupt and most UNholy organization. (But I still disbelieve the Trinity!

    outnfree

  • PurpleV
    PurpleV

    Hi and welcome

    You might want to add to the things you are questioning the following:

    1. That the Watchtower society clearly goes against the Bible when they insert the organization inbetween yourself and Jesus. The Bible says that there is one mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus. The WT tells you quite clearly that this only applies to the 144,000 and that they are the mediator between you and Christ.

    2. When you get baptized, you get baptized not in the name of the holy spirit, but in God's "spirit-directed organization."

    3. You are taught, on pain of DF, that you cannot understand the Bible without one of the organization's publications.

    I have a lot of problems with a man-made organization inserting itself into every single aspect of your relationship with God, and that if you reject any of that, you will be destroyed at Armageddon by a very petty and vengeful Jehovah.

    Just my two cents! Best of luck on your journey. I look forward to your posts.

    PurpleV

  • Valis
    Valis
    am still a JW in my heart, unlike many I see on this list who are quite vitriolic, maybe for good personal reason I can understand with all the emotional and psychological damage inflicted with poorly handled judicial matters, ostracism, judgementalism, and paedofilia victims, however I try to keep things in perspective.

    What perspective would that be besides the perspective of a good little dubbie? You say you believe in 95%...would that 95% include the blood doctrine, the two witness rule, failed prophecy, shunning, pedophilia cover up, what? Its a lot easier to delude oneself into believing that Armageddon is coming and then you get to live forever versus facing the fact that all that is crap...it didn't come in 1975 and it aint gonna come any time in the future. I feel sorry for you if anything.

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer

  • garybuss
    garybuss



    outnfree, Thanks for that clarification. You do realize that I am only human and I never claimed to be inspired and I am subject to making mistakes. :-)

    You have to admit Jehovah's organization was right about the start of World War 2. They did say something bad was going to happen and they never said what or when so it is beneficial for all to listen to what they have to say now. Only a true prophet admits it when they make a mistake and so many have gone to prison and died not accepting blood that this MUST be the true religion.

    I am glad you still have the correct un-understanding of the trinity and this gives me hope that you will someday accept the correct un-understandings of the other core un-understandings required for everlasting life on a paradise earth except we never said when that would start and all honest hearted people can see that God's favorite people were always goat herders, fishermen and boat builders and even the apostate Paul walked everywhere so that proves in the new world there won't be cars.

    District Overbeer, surely you don't think it ALL is crap? The 1975 yearbook has a history of Jehovah's Organization and even it says it's not all crap. I am glad you did not write it is 95% crap because that could have serious implications of indescribable proportions.

    gb

    The Way I See it http://www.freeminds.org/buss/buss.htm
  • Valis
    Valis

    Indeed gary....I might have my beer privilidges taken away!

    Sincerely,

    District Overbeer of the "Yeah Its All Crap!" class

  • jgnat
    jgnat

    Welcome, Torn. It is great to have another perspective added to the board. I liken the varied personalities and opinions here to meat and bones. Unlike pablum, the ideas presented here cannot be swallowed whole. They need to be bitten in to gently, masticated, and the nasty bits left on the plate. Regardless of all that, I still prefer steak over gruel.

    I really hope you enjoy yourself here.

  • neyank
    neyank

    Well Gary.

    What else can be added to your reply?

    NOTHING.

    So I must say, I second that!

    neyank

  • fjtoth
  • Torn
    Torn

    Thanks everyone for your replies and the encouragement. A pretty mixed bag really. I look forward to checking into the site fairly regularly and seeing everyone's views.

    Neyank said 'where is the proof'. I feel there is plenty for reserving one's judgement that God is not using this organisation, warts and all. First of all, I have studied all the trinitarian arguments inside out and still cannot see how anyone can honestly believe in the Trinity. Plus, no other religion teaches, from my own research (JW and all the counterarguments) the truth about the condition of the dead, ie, the mortality of the soul, except perhaps the Christadelphians, and the resultant collapse of the hellfire argument. No other religion teaches that there are 2 destinies for mankind. Christadelphians also have hit on the truth about the restoration of a God's original purpose for this earth, ie, living forever on earth will be mankinds restored destiny, however, they go to the other extreme and deny there is any heavenly hope whatsoever. This seems a clear scriptural teaching for me, ie, restoration of the earth to it's original condition and purpose and a restoration to perfection for the majority of mankind on earth. Don't worry, I've examined all the arguments against this, but still I'm convinced JW's have this right. Also, I cannot find any other religion that has hit onto the truth about what the Kingdom of God really is, ie, a Governmental arrangement that will rule from the earth. It's so nauseating to see other religious groups trying to rely on how Jesus supposedly saying "The Kingdom is within you" (a shonky translation of what Jesus originally meant and said") to support their view that the Kingdom is somehow just some ideal within us to be attained to. Most other religions give too much emphasis on Jesus and worship him as the Creator. No one seems to have a middle ground except JW's. Some feel they do not give Jesus enough emphasis and the 'mother' Organisation too much. I can understand this and agree to some extent, but why go to the other extreme?

    Also, Jesus' last words to his disciples were Acts 1:8 '...the holy spirit will arrive upon you...and you will be witnesses of me to the most distant parts of the earth". There is no way I can believe that the worldwide preaching work undertaken by the Bible Students and JW's over the last century or more could be accomplished without God's spirit operating on them, despite the odd teaching being and chronological expectations being faulty here and there. It is the fundamental doctrines they have right. What other group has bothered to get out of their comfort zone tried to help people learn about the bible? It's easy to be cynical and say 'they just do that to brainwash and recruit', but I honestly feel the majority are utterly sincere in wanting people out there to learn about something better for mankind as taught in the scriptures than what evolution and the mainstream churches offer.

    As for Neyank's suggestion that the fact JW's do not perform miracles somehow means that God is not using them, well, one could really say it is the opposite, ie, that those groups that are performing supernatural things like tongues, faith healing, etc are giving evidence that they cannot possibly be used by God, because the Apostle Paul warned about these sorts of things happening in the end times 2 Thess 2: 9-12. On the other hand Jesus said in Matt :28, 19 and 20 that he would 'be with' christians who preach and make disciples.

    Still, there is no doubt about it that the Organisation is too controlling and dictates how we should worship God, ie, must go to all the meetings, answer up at least once, go on FS at least once a month etc. There is quite simply far to much emphais on PERFORMING and WORKS, and not enough emphasis on showing love, compassion, and nonjudgementalism to EVERYONE in the congregation, not just those who are putting on a good show and doing all the works every good little JW is expected to perform. Even the way the preaching is done is so regulated and magazine focused that JW' have almost become 'peddlars of the word' (2 Cor 2:17) instead of sincere, heartfelt, and skillful teachers of it. Many are so unwittingly obsessed with getting their hours and offering lame magazine presentations that they have lost their ability to offer a true sermon and try sincerely to reach people with the Good news.

    Valis - your picture of the ring through the nipple reveals a lot about you and the path you're presently on. Are you even still a Christian I wonder?

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