Keeping it in perspective

by Torn 103 Replies latest jw experiences

• 

  Sentinel

  Torn,

  I truly do admire your honesty. For a very long time, I talked myself into continuing with the JW's because of many of the things you stated in your thread. I suppose, it does have a lot to do with one's own personal experiences "within".

  Still, you are here, and you are welcome. You indicated in the first line that you believe 95% of what they teach, and yet, you listed some major items that you have a problem with, which to me, would reduce this percentage down to at least 50%, but that's just my observation.

  If a person is happy and satisfied in the religion of their choice, then I think that's wonderful. I'm not a JW basher. I was once a JW for many, many years. I truly believed most of the concepts, but had difficulty with wanting more answers, other than the dogma handed out. This of course, is not allowed. I don't like the judging, the labeling, the shunning, for simply deciding not to be a JW anymore. This has destroyed many a family unit, and to me seems to be a bad sign of a "good faith".

  I hope you will continue to read and post here because this means that you are a thinking individual, and that you still believe in the concept of "self". Always hold onto your gut instincts and your reasoning will not fail you.

  I'm free of trying to please everyone and everybody, except "god", and still being filled with guilt and depression. I'm free to explore all the information available and make my own decisions. I'm free to be myself honestly and completely and to use my own conscience to practice love and all things good. There is much joy and happiness in living this way.
• 

  fjtoth

  Torn,

  Jesus said we would know them by their fruits. Here are some WT fruits that led me to leave after 50 years. For the sake of brevity I won't list many:

  • As a JW I was not genuinely Bible trained. JWs rely on WT publications and in actuality place WT literature above the Bible.
  • JWs falsely teach that they are God's organization, yet Jesus said the wheat and weeds would grow "together" until the harvest and that the angelic reapers, not some organization, would do the separating not earlier than the time for punishment and rewards. (Mt 13:24-30; compare 1 Co 4:5; 2 Ti 2:19.)
  • JWs falsely teach that membership in an organization is the way to salvation, yet the Scriptures are clear that when we stand before the judgment seat of God and Christ it will not be church membership that will save us. Instead, we will stand as individuals, and as individuals we will answer, not for what organization we belonged to, but for what we have personally done. (Ps 15:1-5; Mt 12:36, 37; Lu 12:48; Ro 2:6, 7; 14:10-12; 1 Co 4:5; Gal 6:4, 7, 8; Re 2:23; 3:21)
  • JWs have been misled into believing God's "organization" is the way, yet Jesus said that he alone is "the way and the truth and the life." (John 14:6)
  • The Society falsely teaches that only "the remnant" as a group are the "slave" of Matt. 24:45-51. Conversely, Luke 21:34-36 and other scriptures show that we each individually must be faithful and discreet in caring for what the Master has entrusted to us. (Mt 25:13-30; Lu 12:47, 48; 16:10-13; 1 Co 4:2; Heb 3:12; 1 Pe 4:10,11; Re 16:15)
  • JWs said that the end of the world would come in 1914. They said Abraham would be resurrected in 1925. They even built Beth Sarim in California for the ancient "worthies." These and other prophecies were false and made JWs look ridiculous.
  • Acts 10:38 makes it noteworthy that Jesus "went through all the land doing good and healing" the oppressed people, and today other religions build hospitals, clinics, nursing homes, etc., for their own if not also for others. But the WT Society chooses to use its millions upon millions of dollars to expand its possessions and to build more and more comfortable Bethel homes instead of helping even its own sick, handicapped, and elderly.

  The above are far worse than warts. They are symptons of a deathly spiritual sickness that runs through the very heart and core of the organization.

  How does not believing in the Trinity require an organization? From 300 to 1500 CE, non-trinitarians had no organization. That period represents almost three fourths of the time period from Christ's earthly ministry until now. During that long period the only organizations claiming to be God's were the trinitarian Greek Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches. So, obviously non-trinitarians are fully capable of demonstrating strong faith in God without the need of a supporting organization, as was demonstrated in the life and martyrdom of Michael Servetus and countless others. Something similar could be said about those believing in soul mortality.

  As you mentioned, the Christadelphians have some teachings similar to those of JWs, and it should be noted that they had them before JWs did. So, there you have another organization that teaches what you believe is the truth in many areas. But you won't consider joining. Your reason is that they don't teach two destinies for mankind. Additionally, the Christadelphians are nearly as rigid in expressing authority and control over their members as are JWs. Like JWs, they also expressed many false prophecies during the last two centuries. They don't believe in a superhuman devil, and they offer a weird explanation of why Jesus died. Interestingly, they all partake of the memorial though none of them expect to go to heaven, at least not in the sense that "the anointed" among JWs expect to go there.

  A close examination of JWs will show they have as many false factors as the Christadelphians and probably even more. So, who are going to be saved at Armageddon, the Christadelphians? The JWs? Or some other church organization? Not if Jesus has anything to do with it, and he has everything to do with it!

  So, should we be looking to an organization or to Christ? The head of every man is Christ, not an organization. (1 Co 11:3) Jesus won't teach you false doctrines and prophecies, and he won't lord himself over you though he of all persons has that right. (Mt 11:28-30)

  JWs are also wrong about what the Kingdom is about. The Messiah will someday sit upon David's throne. Abraham, Moses, David, Daniel and others will be associates with him in the Kingdom itself, not merely in its "earthly realm." Jesus himself said "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven." (Mt 8:11) But JWs can't accept that plain statement of Jesus, just as they refuse to believe many other things that Jesus taught. This is no less nauseating than what we hear from other church "organizations."

  Have JWs chosen the "middle ground" with regard to Jesus and the Father? As I see it, they've simply gone to the opposite extreme of those who place the emphasis on Jesus to the near exclusion of the Father.

  As a JW you don't hesitate to attribute the work of the WT organization to God's spirit. But what about the monumental work of getting the true gospel published in far more languages than the WTS could ever imagine by way of Bible translations? The share of JWs in that work has been minimal, even with the achievement of the NWT. Bible societies have existed for centuries with their translating committees. Comparatively speaking, the WTS is a mere young upstart that takes far more credit to itself than it deserves.

  And, mind you, the WT gospel is a false gospel. Jesus is due to "return" to the earth, not midheaven. When he does, he will be seen by every person.(Rev 1:7) But here again, the WT can't accept what the Bible specifically says and has invented its own different gospel. Additionally, with all the preaching that they do, JWs are little known for what they call their "Kingdom message." One would think that the billions of books and magazines and home visits would have by now convinced the public that JWs stand for something more than the rejection of blood transfusions and the refusal to salute the flag! So, where is all this evidence you speak of regarding the leading of God's spirit?

  Is it really true, as you say, that they have the "fundamental doctrines" right? And do they truly get up out of their "comfort zone" simply by showing zeal for a misguided cause? The scribes and Pharisees had that kind of zeal. But what good did it do them? Jesus said: "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! Because you traverse sea and land to make one proselyte." And Paul added, "I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God; but not according to accurate knowledge." (Ro 10:2)

  I didn't write the above in a spirit of meanness. I was a "zealous" JW for many years, and I studied with many people who themselves became JWs. I love JWs as persons, and I miss many among them who were my closest friends. I don't hate them, but there can be no denying that they do in fact show hatred toward me. My own mother and siblings won't speak with me. Persons who used to have me stay overnight or spend vacations with them will no longer say hello. And they all view that as Christian! So, I have to agree with Paul who wrote, "Yet what things were gains to me, these I have considered loss on account of the Christ. Why, for that matter, I do indeed also consider all things to be loss on account of the excelling value of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord. On account of him I have taken the loss of all things and I consider them as a lot of refuse, that I may gain Christ and be found in union with him." (Php 3:7-11)

  Lots to think about, Torn.

  Frank

  Please visit my website.
• 

  fjtoth

  "Torn" replied privately to my previous post. Hoping it will be of interest to others, I'm posting my reply to him:

  ---

  Hi "Torn",

  I appreciate your not wanting to get into an argument. Thats my position as well. Nevertheless, there are many things about which we disagree.

  Are JWs genuinely Bible trained? Honesty compels me to say that I devoted at least ten times as much attention to reading and studying WT publications as I spent in studying the Bible. My WT publications were heavily underlined, but my Bible not nearly so much. There really wasnt time available for the Bible since there was so much WT literature to read and study. How is it with you, honestly?

  Does the WT place its publications above the Bible? C. T. Russell said a person isolated on an island would be better off without the Bible than without his Studies in the Scriptures. The WT hasnt changed that view of its literature. Do any witnesses ever get together to study the Bible without having WT literature in the room as their guide? I knew some at Brooklyn Bethel who did, and their reward was in getting disfellowshiped for apostasy. They didnt teach anybody a thing different from what the WT teaches, but they got disfellowshiped for disregarding counsel instructing them not to meet in such a way.

  Do JWs teach that they are the "reapers" in Jesus illustration at Mt 13:24-30? Of course not, but they act as though they are. They judge everyone outside their organization as of the world and as not genuinely Christian. All other churches are viewed as Babylon the Great. Persons like me who left due to no longer believing many WT teachings are viewed even as demonic. Only Christ has been authorized by God to make such serious judgments of people. They may have recently made a change in their teaching on when the sheep and goats are separated. But the fact remains that for most of their history they arrogantly sat in Christs seat. They pretended to have authority that only he possesses to judge who will be saved and who will be destroyed.

  Do JWs teach that membership in their organization is the way to salvation? Yes. For example, on page 587, The Watchtower of 10/1/67 states: "Thus the Bible is an organizational book and belongs to the Christian congregation as an organization, not to individuals, regardless of how sincerely they may believe that they can interpret the Bible. For this reason the Bible cannot be properly understood without Jehovah's visible organization in mind." On pages 18, 19, The Watchtower of 3/15/88 states: "Furthermore, suppose a person was to separate himself from Jehovahs people. Where could he go? Is he not faced with the same issue that confronted Jesus apostles when he asked them if they also wanted to leave him? The apostle Peter rightly replied: Lord, whom shall we go away to? You have sayings of everlasting life. (John 6:68) There is nowhere else to go but to 'Babylon the Great,' the world empire of false religion, or into the clutches of Satans political wild beast. (Revelation 13:1; 18:1-5)" The 1982 Yearbook states on pages 258-9 that the organization is necessary for anyone to serve Jehovah successfully for salvation.

  When did the last days begin, that is, the time when "the mountain of Jehovah" would be established above the top of the mountains? In a real sense the last days began with the first coming of Christ. Peter applied "the last days" to the first century when he said "And in the last days, God says, I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh." (Ac 2:17) We also read: "But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, ... Avoid [now, in the first century!] such men as these." (2 Ti 3:1, 5; comp. Ro 1:28-32) "God, after he spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in his Son. ... now once at the consummation of the ages he has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself." (Heb 1:1, 2; 9:26) "For he was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you." (1 Pe 1:20) "Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, ... it escapes their notice [now, in the first century!] that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water." (2 Pe 3:3, 5) "Even now many antichrists have appeared; from this we know that it is the last hour." (1 Jo 2:18)

  Do either the organization of JWs or their mythical 1914 "kingdom" constitute "the mountain of Jehovah" of Isaiah 2:2 and Micah 4:1-3? No. That is not how the early Christians viewed it. They were told: "But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel." (Heb 12:22-24)

  Do JWs focus their efforts on preaching the good news of the Kingdom? No. Their message is based upon a wrong understanding of what the Kingdom is and how it comes. It is a pure myth to say Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 simply by focusing his attention toward the earth. Jesus said he would be with his disciples until the end. (Mt 28:20) It is absurd to think that he returned simply by becoming in some way even more "with" them since 1914.

  Have JWs replaced Christ as the way to salvation? Yes. Christ said "Follow me." On the other hand, the WT Society says "We should be aware ... that if we do not continue in the course that has enabled us to acquire godly insight, we can lose it. Sadly, some have had exactly that experience ... they drew away from Jehovahs organization. How sad! The circumstances of such a person are described at Psalm 36:1-3, where we read: ... There is no dread of God in front of his eyes ... And what is the result to him? He ceases to have insight for doing good.... How vital, then, that we not only have insight but also safeguard it by appreciating the means by which Jehovah has enabled us to acquire it!" (The Watchtower, 3/15/89, pages 16, 17) According to the WT, the "means" is not the power of Jesus spirit. It is "Jehovahs organization."

  Is it wrong for the Society to teach that "the remnant" as a group are the "slave" of Matthew 24:45-51? Yes, it shows an arrogant attempt to apply to the organization what Jesus plainly applied to the individual Christian.

  Is it proper to excuse the WT Society for continuing to falsely claim that the Intl Bible Students predicted Christs return in 1914? No. The leaders of the WT Society know they are deliberately misrepresenting the truth in this matter. Charles Russell for decades before 1914 said that Christ returned in 1874, and he foretold the end of the world for 1914. This is not by any means a "harking back" to old expectations. It is a matter of present day lying on the part of the Society in order to give the impression that it is a true prophet when it really is not.

  Was it false prophecy or mere eager expectation when the Society predicted the return of Abraham in 1925 and built Beth Sarim? It was false prophesy plain and simple. If any other organization had done the same, the Society would have eagerly joined in the ridicule. It must therefore accept the responsibility for its errors. In a very unchristian manner the Society has never apologized for any of its many prophetic errors, and it has arrogantly continued to call itself Gods prophet-like organization. (The Watchtower, 4/1/72, page 197) Such an absurd claim brings no glory to God.

  Is bitterness the motive of those who point out the errors of the Society? That is what the Society hypocritically claims. At the same time it boasts that its own motive is love when warning people about other religions. Many who point out the Societys errors have deep concern for the countless numbers of people whose lives have been essentially ruined by the Societys false prophecies and other erroneous teachings.

  Do JWs claim their organization is perfect? Actually, yes! They claim it is actively led by Jesus and guided by angels. (The Watchtower, 8/1/87, pages 11, 16-20) And they claim the holy spirit operates through it. (The Watchtower, 12/1/88, page 25)

  Other than the Waldenses and a few other groups that existed for merely a few decades at a time, does history tell us that non-trinitarians organized themselves during the 1,200 years before the Reformation? Absolutely not. To make the claim when there is no evidence is mere wishful thinking. Such thinking is motivated by viewing Christianity as an organization rather than a way of life that is accountable to Christ alone. It should be noted that the Waldensians were against being organized, and they had both trinitarians and non-trinitarians in their fellowship.

  Does common sense lead to the conclusion that the WT Society has Gods spirit simply because it teaches some things correctly? No. Other churches also teach some things correctly, but the WT Society condemns them wholesale as Babylon the Great. It is hypocritical to use one standard of measurement for oneself and a different one for others. The WT Society has rafters in its own eyes while trying to remove straw from the eyes of others. (Mt 7:1-5)

  Can a person truthfully claim to be a JW if he believes that non-JWs will be saved? Absolutely not! On page 31, The Watchtower of 4/1/86 states: "Approved association with Jehovahs Witnesses requires accepting the entire range of the true teachings of the Bible, including those Scriptural beliefs that are unique to Jehovahs Witnesses. What do such beliefs include? ... That there is a faithful and discreet slave upon earth today entrusted with all of Jesus earthly interests, which slave is associated with the Governing Body of Jehovahs Witnesses. (Matthew 24:45-47) ... That Armageddon, referring to the battle of the great day of God the Almighty, is near. (Revelation 16:14, 16; 19:11-21) That it will be followed by Christs Millennial Reign, which will restore an earth-wide paradise. That the first to enjoy it will be the present great crowd of Jesus other sheep.John 10:16; Revelation 7:9-17; 21:3, 4. Do we have Scriptural precedent for taking such a strict position? Indeed we do!"

  Does JW theology allow for the "sensible approach" of believing others besides JWs will be saved? No, as the above quote from the 4/1/86 WT clearly shows, as well as many other publications of the Society.

  What is ironic about the claim that some persons are unfair and illogical for writing off the Society due to its overly-strict organizational requirements? The Society itself shows no hesitation in writing off anyone who doesnt fully conform to those requirements!!!

  Is it merely a matter of interpretation to say that Christ will rule on the earth? Absolutely not! This was the Jewish hope for their Messiah. The hope was given to them by God himself. Jesus never changed those prophesies. In fact, "beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, he explained to them the things concerning himself in all the Scriptures." (Lu 24:27) Jesus stated: "These are my words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled." (Lu 24:44) The interpretation maneuver is on the part of JWs who wrongly reject the Scriptures in preference to their own sectarian belief.

  Are JWs any different than the other churches of Christendom that have engaged in persecution of those who dont agree with them? Not at all. Any one of countless numbers of former JWs who were disfellowshiped on flimsy charges can testify what a monstrous and evil meddler the Society has been in their personal and family life. Add to that the thousands of innocent children who have died because of their parents misguided judgment regarding blood transfusions. Jesus showed plainly that the law could be set aside if a life was at stake. (Mt 12:11, 12) But JWs attempt to make themselves more righteous than Jesus by their heartless Pharisaical interpretation of the Scriptures. Then there are those hundreds if not thousands of cases where paedophiles have been protected in order for the organization to keep its reputation polished. There is no doubt in the minds of many that if the WT Society had the political clout the Catholic Church had during the period of the Inquisition, they would utilize it in the same way.

  Is it logical to reason that the WT Society with all its false and hurtful doctrines and practices has the holy spirit and that non-sectarian Bible societies do not? The question answers itself.

  Is it true that people on earth will never see Jesus again? No. For example, Jesus told the Jews they would see him again when they would acknowledge "Blessed is he that comes in Jehovahs name." (Mt 23:39) There can be no watering down of the prophecy that every eye will see him when he returns. (Rev 1:7) Still, JWs find these plain statements of Scripture unacceptable.

  Did Jesus sacrifice his body of flesh and blood forever, or was it his life that he gave as mankinds ransom? "The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life a ransom for many." (Mt 20:28; Mr 10:45) Jesus spoke of his body as a temple, and he specifically said that this same body would be raised. (Mt 26:61; 27:40; Mr 14:58; 15:29; Jn 2:19, 21) According to the way JWs reason, Jesus must remain dead forever since he sacrificed his life and cant have it back.

  Well, "Torn," I tried in the little spare time I have to deal with your observations. I find it a bit amazing that despite all the failures and weaknesses you personally have seen in the organization that you still believe that its from God and has his spirit. Jesus warned us of false prophets and false teachers. I wish you had a fraction of the opportunity Ive had in my association with the governing body to see these misdoings on a grander scale. I dont think then that you would make up so many excuses for the organizations unchristian aspects. I also dont think you would attribute any of my comments to bitterness, harshness, lack of logic or making a big deal of matters. I also wish you would step back a little and re-examine some of your personal theology. Instead of using scriptures, youre too prone to say things like "I dont see this ...," "cant agree," "off the mark," "these are fundamental," "sorry, disagree entirely," "sheesh," etc. Im left with the conclusion that my first observation above is one of the most fundamental truths about JWs: They are not genuinely Bible trained. Instead, they support their thinking entirely with what theyve read in WT literature.

  One last point: A person risks speaking against the holy spirit when he fails to see a fallible man-made organization for what it really is and claims that this corrupted body is a product of the spirit. God and Christ are not honored or glorified by such whimsical thinking and speaking.

  I hope this has been helpful and enlightening. Be assured that you have my Christian love and best wishes.

  Frank
• 

  Shakita

  Welcome Torn: I appreciate your comments and your right to believe what you have been taught. But isn't it true that the Watchtower tells us to keep an open mind? Do you think that individuals should be considered apostate for telling the truth? The Governing Body has disfellowshipped some people just for disagreeing with them. If a long held belief has been found to be in error, shouldn't it be discarded, regardless of the consequences? What if an individual JW did extensive research that showed that the understanding of the gentile times was misinterpreted? A man named Carl OLof Jonsson did an extensive treatise in the early 80's concerning the gentile times and his research showed unequivocally that the destruction of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E. by Nebuchadnezzar had no Biblical or historical basis. As a matter of fact it was shown that the actual destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar happened in 587 B.C.E., 20 years later. Carl sent this treatise to the Governing body of Jehovah's Witnesses for their examination. Even though his research was irrefutable, the Governing Body refused to make a correction and instead held to the 607 B.C.E. date for the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar. You see, 1914 is a pivotal date to the Witnesses. Without that date, their hold on many would crumble. The Watchtower threatened Carl to keep quiet about what he found, although he couldn't keep silent about what he knew to be true. He eventually was disfellowshipped for telling the truth. In other words, he disagreed with the Governing Body and was summarily "executed" as a result.

  Carl Olof Jonsson also wrote a book entitled "The Sign of the Last Days When? This thought provoking book showed with cold hard facts, that our twentieth century was not unique when it came to wars, famines, earthquakes and pestilences. For example, the fourteenth century was far worse in the number killed by the black death and in horrendous wars that took tens of millions of lives. As a matter of fact, many individuals from the fourteenth century thought that the last days were upon them at that time. He made the point that Jesus said "Do not be misled" when you see these signs, as if that would be proof that my arrival is imminent. Remember Jesus said that he would come as "a thief in the night " and that his appearance would come with striking suddenness that would take mankind off guard. I agree with you that the emphasis should be on living the kind of life that God and his Son would approve of, not in serving God for a particular date.

  Remember Torn what Jesus said to the woman at the well. He said : "Their is a time coming when the true worshippers will worship the Father in spirit and truth." Where does Jesus there state that to be accepted by one's Heavenly Father they must be a Jehovah's Witness. One's religion does not matter. It is how we individually worship our Heavenly Father that is important to Him. Hiding behind any religion will not change an individual from a nasty, Pharisaical, self-righteous hypocrite, into a loving, kind, merciful person who truly loves the Father and worships Him in spirit and truth.

  My advice to you is to keep an open mind. Read without any blinders on and you will come to the conclusion that just because an individual disagrees with the Governing Body does not make that person equal to the Devil. Remember Torn: TRUTH IS NEVER APOSTASY, BUT TO LIE TO OTHERS TO CONCEAL THE TRUTH IS CERTAINLY APOSTASY. So, I would recommend Carl OLof Jonsson's books "The Sign Of The Last Days When? and "The Gentile Times Reconsidered." Don't ever be afraid to find out the truth, for the simple fact that some person is threatening you with expulsion from the congregation for doing so.

  Mr. Shakita
• 

  Mum

  Welcome, Tom. The very reason that we can no longer be JW's or support the organization is that we cannot be a part of an organization that tells others what to think. You are at a very normal phase of leaving the organization. Most of us understand.

  A few years ago I read a book called The Orwellian World of Jehovah's Witnesses by Gary and Heather Botting. In this book, the Bottings point out that very few people wake up one day and decide to leave the organization. Most of us felt or were pushed out.

  I probably still believe 95% of what the JW's profess to believe as well. Having said that, I probably believe 95% of what most other religions profess to believe. The difference is that I can still be a member in good standing of other churches, even with my inability to understand doctrine enough to buy into it without reservation. A God who could be fully understood by us, by definition, would not be God.

  Be patient with yourself. It's hard to let go.
• 

  Mulan

  Welcome Torn. What you said in your posts stirred memories in me. I used to say the same things. "Jehovah's witnesses are the only ones who don't teach the trinity, don't take blood, don't go to war, use God's name, etc." All of those are things we were told at meetings, and in their publications. A little research reveals that none are true. There are many religions that don't go to war, don't teach the trinity, and who use God's name. Taking blood has become a controversial thing anyway, so I don't think it can be used anymore as a mark of the true religion.

  A friend of ours used to say this: "I believe this is true, that the WTS teaches: The dead are dead. Christ died a ransom and was resurrected. There is one God."

  Seems to sum it up. The rest of their doctrines are open to interpretation and to change. The main thing to me is their fruitage. What do they produce? Kinder, more loving people? Or judgmental, self righteous, vindictive people.
• 

  ozziepost

  G'day Tom and welcome aboard from us downunder folks!

  You've sure introduced yourself well with a very thought-provoking post. For the sake of brevity, may I make comments on specific points?

  I've just joined up to Silentlambs..........I still consider myself a JW

  How do you reconcile these two statements in your mind? Please re-consider, for from what you have observed, what is the outcome for "joining" a group such as Silentlambs?

  I have however in the last few years had a lot of trouble with the Society's chronology, teaching regarding the Gentile times........I still consider 95% of it to be the truth.........I also feel the Society have 'double vision' regarding the Christ's return, ie, they say he returned in 1914 invisibly and sat on a throne then in heaven, but he is also to 'return' in another sense at the outbreak of Armageddon and sit on another throne, ie, a 'judgement throne'........ I think all of the Society's main doctrines are spot on

  I'm very confused by these statements. They seem contradictory to me. Please understand that the Society's chronology is the very core of Witness belief, for without it, the teaching of the faithful and discreet slave being appointed over all of Christ's belongings doesn't fit. Without that core teaching, the WTS would have no raison d'etre and no authority.

  to my mind that doesn't mean God is not using this Organisation

  To what end?

  I'm sorry, Tom, to sound so negative, but I know that there are others here in Oz who have similar views, even posting to this site, and we've discussed this face to face. Sadly, they remain in the Dub mindset, believing in the two organisations, either God's or Satan's.

  Cheers, Ozzie
• 

  Torn

  Dear Shakita. Thanks for your personal message to me.

  I have examined heard of Mr Jonson's theories. I havn't read his books, but from articles and research on freeminds and some other ex-JW sites.

  To be candid, I do have very big concerns with the teaching re 1914. From my research there is indeed something screwy with the the Society's teachings surrounding this date. It is certainly troubling that all the independent, secular, and religous research points to 587ce as the time of Jerusalem's fall and not 607ce. Troubles over this is predominantly why I feel I cannot go from door to door at this point in my life.

  Re Olof Jonsson's theories that there is nothing special about the last century and that other eras have been just as bad - there are many theories on Jesus words in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Debates haved raged for decades and even centuries for and against amillenniasm, premillenniasm, postmillenniamism. Ideas promulgating that all of Jesus prophecies in these chapters were fulfilled in the first century are popular, plus the idea that it is about half and half, and others that it's all to be fulfilled in our time. All theories are very seductive and can be argued semantically quite strongly for and against. One could easily get bogged down and just throw ones hands up in the air and decide 'who can figure this all out - it's all open to interpretation - I give up on the lot'. For me the crux of the matter is that Jesus will definitely 'return' to take his Kingly rule over this earth. Whether you feel he's coming back down to this planet or staying in heaven, that's also a matter for one's own interpretation. But he IS returning, and I do not believe he has left us totally in the dark about the 'season' when that will be. Having examined the arguments, I'm convinced that many, but not all, of the things Jesus foretold in the said gospel accounts have fulfillments both in his own time re the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD, and for his future followers to know when they are in that 'season'. We know that many many prophecies in the bible have double fulfillments, typical and antitypical.

  Combined with this is the chronology of the bible, ie, the fact that we have gone past 6000 years since Adam was created, God's great jubilee plan timetable, the exciting prophecies in Revelation which were recorded after the destruction of Jerusalem, the duration of the Abrahamic Covenant (terminating at Christ's death) followed by the Covenant for a Kingdom which is of the same duration as the Abrahamic Covenant (see John Denton's amazing research on this). There are just too many lines of evidence pointing to these times we are living in as special. The popularity of evolution, the shocking drop in morals in our times, the erosion of the family, the acceptance of homosexuality, the drying up of Babylon The Great's waters, ie, the increasing fall-off in those attending the mainstream churches, the fact that we are in the time period of the feet of the great image witnessed by the prophet Daniel, ie, the Anglo-American world power (no more world powers to come), the fact we are in the time period of the 8th King foretold in Revelation. I would be skating on extremely thin ice if I got lulled into thinking that maybe there is no imminent return of christ and maybe it won't even come in my lifetime. I choose to keep faith in Jesus return in our time and stay awake. Even if it doesn't come in my lifetime, at least I was faithful and can look forward to everlasting life by means of a resurrection. The prize is still the same whether it comes in 12 months, or 50 years.
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  ozziepost

  G'day again Tom,

  I couldn't let this go without making a comment:

  the drying up of Babylon The Great's waters, ie, the increasing fall-off in those attending the mainstream churches

  On what do you base your opinion? Surely you're not relying on WTS publications alone? How many times we delivered those words from Public Talk outlines. But was (and is) it true? My own investigations have shown that it certainly isn't. Quite the contrary, some Christian "organisations" are expanding at a tremendous rate, even in areas where the number of publishers has decreased. If any "waters" are drying up, it's the waters of the WTS.

  Think again, Tom!

  Cheers, Ozzie
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  fairy

  you do have to be going to the meetings, witnessing and all the rest of the stuff...you cannot be sitting on the fence which really you are doing....jehovah isnt going to say, oh well, they didnt go to the meetings etc, but they still considered them a witness so thats ok,.......its not ok......you have to do it all the way or not at all........thats advice i was given and i didnt like that at first but i thought about it, and its true........the witnesses always say, you cant sit on the fence, either one or the other.........so even though you basically dont go to the meetings, you are on the "other" side of the fence.