Keeping it in perspective

by Torn 103 Replies latest jw experiences

  • Shakita
    Shakita

    Torn: This past year has proved to be an eye opener for me. I have moved away from the Jehovah's Witnesses not because of doctrinal issues, but because of emotional issues. Isn't it true that Jesus set the example of how to treat he flock? Didn't he always have a kind and upbuilding thing to say to the common man? Your previous post showed that you recognize that. How would God and his Son feel about those elders that abused and mistreated the sheep? Wouldn't they condemn them? Of course. My point to you Torn is that more people are leaving the JW's as a result of a gross lack of love shown to them.

    Shouldn't John 13:35 be the main criteria to convince people that they are "in the truth?" Jesus said: "By this all will know that you are my disciples by the love you show to one another." If a religion enforces rules in a Pharisaical fashion and coldheartedly applies these rules towards the rank and file Jehovah's Witness, can it be said that they are showing love to their adherents? For example, did you ever see Jesus threaten anyone that disagreed with him that he would oust them from the temple. Remember when Jesus healed a man that was born blind? The Pharisees heard about this healing and they sent for the man to confirm whether or not Jesus had healed him. I'm going to start with John 9:24: "A second time they called back the man who had been born blind, and said to him, "Promise before God that you will tell the truth! We know that this man who cured you is a sinner." "I do not know if he is a sinner or not," the man replied. "One thing I do know: I was blind and now I see." "What did he do to you?" they asked. "How did he cure you of your blindness?" "I have already told you," he answered, and you would not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Maybe you, too, would like to be his disciples?" They insulted him and said, "You are that fellow's disciple; but we are Moses' disciples. We know that God spoke to Moses; as for that fellow, however, we do not even know where he comes from!" The man answered, "What a strange thing that is! You do not know where he comes from, but he cured me of my blindness! We know that God does not listen to sinners; he does listen to people who respect him and do what he wants them to do. Since the beginning of the world nobody has ever heard of anyone giving sight to a blind person. Unless this man came from God, he would not be able to do a thing." They answered, "You were born and brought up in sin-and you are trying to teach us?" And they expelled him from the synagogue.

    Torn: I selected this passage from the Bible to illustrate a point. This former blind man was expelled from the synagogue for acknowleding that the one that healed him must have been from God. What was the main issue that resulted in this man's expulsion? He regarded the authority of God and his Son as above that of the religious leaders. The religious leaders viewed any disagreement with their interpretation of scripture or their right to dominate the common man as their inalienable right. Their authority, power and prestige were threatened by Jesus and by anyone that would follow him. Can you imagine the evil of men that would not rejoice in a man blind from birth seeing again? Here was a humble man attempting to teach the teachers. What blasphemy! How dare this little worm try to teach these religious leaders a thing or two. So, for simply telling the truth this man was expelled from the synagogue.

    Do you get the point Torn? What if you went to your congregation and told them what you had learned concerning the gentile times? "Hey everyone, I learned this new fact about the destruction of Jerusalem as being irrefutable to have happened in 587 B.C. That means that there is no significance to 1914, at least in reference to Jesus's alleged invisible return." Suppose you showed them volumes of material on the subject which showed, indisputably, that what you were espousing was right. You would be told in no uncertain terms that unless you kept silent about the matter you would be disfellowshipped.

    Why Torn would anyone be disfellowshipped for telling the truth? It's simple Torn? The Governing Body and the Pharisees of ancient times are no different in what they expect from the rank and file Jehovah's Witness. They say, in effect, listen to us without question, don't doubt or present relevant facts because to do so threatens our authority, our prestige, our power given to us from God. Why, don't you know that questioning and doubting us is the same as questioning and doubting God? Just as the Pharisees reasoning was not scriptural or from God, so the Governing Body's reasoning is not scriptural or from God.

    The Governing Body has taken over the place that only belongs to Jesus Christ. At John 14:6 Jesus says: "I am the way and the truth and the life." Where does it there state that any man, religion, institution, priest, Governing Body can usurp Christ's position. No man has that right. Also, 1Tim 2:5 says: "There is one mediator between God and men, a man Christ Jesus." Jesus is our mediator, not the Governing Body. I personally believe that the Watchtower has gotten some things right scripturally. But that doesn't give them the right to disfellowship someone and label them wicked, evil, devils, and apostates just because someone disagrees with their interpretation of the Bible.

    Torn: I would suggest reading the Bible without the Watchtower's influence in the background. It will open your eyes to what the scriptures truly say. I also recommend two books by Ray Franz entitled, "Crisis of Conscience," and "In Search of Christian Freedom." These two books gives the true and unadulterated history of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society. These books will blow you away. It exposes the Watchtower for their lies and deceptions that they have foisted upon the innocent rank and file Jehovah's Witness. I hope that this will help you to find out the real truth concerning the Governing Body and the Watchtower Society.

    Mr. Shakita

  • Torn
    Torn

    Dear Syn - not sure if there would be much point in us having any discussions. In fact I wonder why on earth you are even on this forum. From your message to me it seems you obviously do not believe in Jesus Christ has having come in the flesh, being sent by our Creator, in turn denying the ransom sacrifice. And you attached a link sending me to some joke-like version of the bible. Not amusing I can tell you.

    You hardly seem like anything resembling a christian, more like a pseudo feminist of some spiritual sort more interesting any bashing anything that upholds the santity and truthfulness of God's inspired Word.

    Torn

  • Torn
    Torn

    Bit disappointed Ozziepost that after my very candid, honest, heartfelt and sincere (as you say) responses to you about where I see JW'S, trying to be as dispassionate and objective as possible, that all you can come back with us some nitpicking snippet taken from the media about something an elder purportedly said about 'spiritual warfare'. For a start, who would deny the media and journalists are marvellous at misquoting people, deliberately and unintentionally. I have seen numerous misquotes and half-quotes presented by the media about JW's and many other religoius persons and organisations. So we have to take anything the media says as someone saying with a pinch of salt a lot of the time.

    If in fact this elder was lying, and I don't believe for a second many elders would dare deliberately lie to a journalist, (most are totally honest, god fearing men - let's be realistic here), then he is a corrupt elder, yes, and will have an accounting to Jehovah for that.

    I could also produce, with sufficient time and research, a 100 quotes from ministers, priests, right reverents, to 1 from any JW elders or representative, that are lies, deceitful, mis-truths, and distortions.

    So what point were you trying to make Ozzie? That your minister and priest friends that you socialise with prove that all of christendom is not corrupt and we can still claim to be true christians and be actively involved in them, even being a minister of one?. That the Catholic Church and the other mainstream churches are not part of a false religious empire and are not bloodguilty? That they have not misled the masses about the doctirnal truth contained in the bible and perpetuated pagan teaches instead? Those who water down the morality of the Bible, who embrace higher criticism and say much of it is myth and allegory, who deny the resurrection of Jesus, who say God took their baby to heaven, who teach that some of the bible is mere allergoy, who say sinners will roast for eternity in a real burning hellfire, who promote war and bless troops and side with political leaders.....and so on and so on ad nauseum.

    No matter how much an ex-JW, who I gather you are, now hates the JW organisation, it seems extra-ordinary to me that one could then go to the other end of the spectrum and openly embrace and wink at ministers of religion.

    To try and prove JW's are wrong and not who they claim to be and are riddled with corruption etc etc is one thing, but to go to the other extreme and insinuate that Christendom ain't so bad really, we'll, I can't really fathom that. They don't have to go hand in hand. Surely, one can intensely dislike the JW organisation and reject it, if they so choose, without having to start sipping from the filthy polluted cup offered by Christendom, can they not? From my observation it seems many ex-jw's find leaving the Organisation creates such a big spiritual vacuum in themselves and leaves them feeling so insecure, and often with so much bitterness and antipathy, that they really lose sight of the wood for the trees doctrinally (not meaning you personally in this paragraph Ozziepost. )

    Nevertheless, there are certainly some good ministers and priests in christendom, with good hearts and intentions, obviously, eg, Nicodemus who came to Jesus in the night knew Jesus was the Messiah. And other pharisees the bible record tells us believed in Jesus but just wouldn't admit it and were too bound up in their religion and organisation and seeking 'the glory of men' and their community to leave at that point. I'm sure there may be some ministers in christendom who are in a similar boat.

    I was however not talking about individuals, but rather referring to these large pagan-originated religions in the broad sense, as A WHOLE, and calling to mind their WHOLE HISTORY AND RECORD through time, not just modern day isolated examples.

    May I ask you Ozziepost - do you even believe there is a such a thing as false religion (besides Satan worshippers and Wiccan etc). Do you believe Jesus words at Matthew 7:21 - 23 (oh let me guess, you only apply this to JW's?), Mark 7:6, 7, Pauls words at 2 Cor 11: 14, 15. Do you believe Satan does transform his ministers into ministers of light? Do you even believe in the Devil I wonder (oh yes, he's operating fully through JW's I suppose you'd say?)

    Is there one little thing at all about JW's that you think is positive Ozziepost?

    I don't blame this younger Tom you mentioned for not frequenting this website anymore quite frankly. There is not much constructive to be gained for a sincere JW looking for something objective and moderate to help guage his religion. Just about the only person I have read so far who has promoted a logical, well thought out, scripturally sound objective middle ground is RAY FRANZ.

    Edited by - Torn on 12 November 2002 6:25:44

    Edited by - Torn on 12 November 2002 6:36:27

    Edited by - Torn on 12 November 2002 6:39:31

  • barry
    barry

    Keeping it in perspective is a good title. Tom Im an Adventist just to be brief Adventists dont beleive in hellfire, the immortality of the soul or that heaven is the final place of man. In fact all witness beleifs are held by christendom the beleif in 1914 is in principle is borrowed from the adventist beleife in 1844. The Arian beleif was borrowed from Arias from the 4th century. Some Adventists are Arian but most beleive the trinity doctrine. Its often said here that the trinity is pagan where did Arias get his model from? Read up about Greek thought you will find the Greek beleifs the same as Arianism. Barry

  • ozziepost
    ozziepost

    Oh dear, Torn, you do seem a little "testy" today! I'm sorry you took my post personally. It was meant as an honest comment. Remember it was you who made generalisations about churches and I simply pointed out that you can't know without further investigation, and this is what I've done.

    Furthermore, the quotes were meant to highlight the different approaches of religious leaders i.e. an Archbishop and the WTS.

    it seems extra-ordinary to me that one could then go to the other end of the spectrum and openly embrace and wink at ministers of religion.

    Well, Jesus mixed with all sorts! But seriously, just because you don't understand it, so what? This is a "shoot the messenger" approach so typical of the Borg. Denigrating my own personal religious beliefs serves little to help progress honest enquiry, does it?

    Let me say, that whatever the record of certain people in past centuries may be of passing interest but of little relevance to my personal religious life today. The thing is, that Christianity is a personal faith in a living God. It has nothing to do with an organisation, whether that be a church or the WTS. Atrocities committed in some faroff land in past centuries are irrelevant. What is important is what we do today. The truth is, the WTS is an abuser of individuals by its practices. That may be hard to stomach, but the record on this board and iin other places is replete with the sorry stories of how people have been ill-treated at the hands of the Borg.

    You've admitted in your early post that you've distanced yourself from the WTS. Why? I remember the day when I became ashamed to be called an elder. Why? Because it became clear to me that I was part of a group (or "class") that brow-beats, harrasses, and generally abuses the individuality of others. That's why I stopped. It's also why I'm glad to no longer be a Dub. And I thank God for it! But how to make up for my past deeds when I loyally served the masters of the WTS.

    You ask: Do I acknowledge there is false religion? Yes, of course! Where is it? Wherever the hypocrites are, wherever the idolators are.

    You ask: Do I see any good in the Witnesses? Yes, all my children and relatives!!!

    Do I see any good in the WTS? An interesting question. It'd be so easy to say No! But we've discussed this with friends from time to time. You can think of the Bible training that the Dubs recieve, and this may be a good thing, but, in reality, I've not found the Dubs any more adept at their use of the Bible than churchgoing Christians. I think the claim to the Dubs having good morals and strong families is a strong one.

    You need to understand Torn that this db is not always the place for sobre intellectual discussion. It's a place where raw nerves are in evidence, the result of horrendous acts by individuals weilding power within congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Nonetheless, if you are a true seeker of truth, then Christ's admonition is to "keep on seeking, and you will find".

    Cheers, Ozzie

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Torn,

    I have to tell you that your latest post to Ozzie is very disappointing. You are being extremely judgemental by using an expression such as "many ex-jw's find leaving the Organisation creates such a big spiritual vacuum in themselves and leaves them feeling so insecure, and often with so much bitterness and antipathy, that they really lose sight of the wood for the trees doctrinally."

    Wouldn't it have been fairer and more honest to say you know of a "few" or "some"? I wonder how many you personally have met? Keep in mind that not everyone contributing to this forum is a former JW. The bitter ones could possibly be the loudest, and those who have finally found happiness could very well be content and not eager to express themselves. It's quite a contrast when you scathingly denounce the majority of persons and groups outside of JWs but say regarding JW elders that "most are totally honest, god fearing men." I think you're looking at JWs with rose-coloured glasses just as I did for the biggest part of my life.

    Frank

  • PurpleV
    PurpleV
    They may be adjusted from time to time yes

    I just can't get my mind around the fact that JWs and their apologists can justify doctrinal flip-flops by saying the organization is made up of imperfect men, and yet turn around and say out of the other side of their mouths that it's Jehovah's spirit-directed organization. That is doublethink in its purest form.

    If this is truly God's channel, why must there be "new light" and "adjustments?" Why would God give out "old light" in the first place, only to change it?

    And I'm not talking nit-picky things, I'm talking life or death matters, like "this generation will not pass away." Now we have a new meaning for "generation." What comfort to those who gave up college and 401K plans who will now die in poverty. Thank you for the new light, Lord!

    How about organ transplants. Blood fractions. Vaccinations. How many people died before this "new light" surfaced?

    It makes no sense.

  • wednesday
    wednesday

    Torn,

    I really have enjoyed this thread, b/c i came here in september feeling very much as u do. I was really mostly upset with the lack of love and what seemed to me worship of an org. instead of God. I too am disturbed about the changing "generation" belief. I too am a silent lamb. I don't know what is right or wrong at this point-but i'm going to hang arund here and listen-b/c who could u discuss this with? Certainly not any JW.The WTS will tolerate no discussion of their polices or beliefs from the members. I have been a witness all my life, but i have been inactive since 96. No one has even cared enough to check on my family. For years before i became inactive i stopped going in FS b/c i refused to bring another person into an org. that would hurt people like they do. I just could not be responsible for that. It is true that jehovahs used an org in ancient times and perhaps He is using this one now, but for sure He'll have some big housecleaning to do.

    welcome to the board.

  • Torn
    Torn

    Dear Shakita (like the name, reminds me of Shakira, mm mm)

    Thanks for your very well put together and thought provoking post. That account of the blind man being healed in the bible and being 'booted out' by the Pharisees is a very powerful one isn't it. I always enjoy reading that account.

    Quite honestly I agree that someone shouldn't be disfellowshipped for merely airing their own ideas on things that may not necessarily be in total harmony with the WBTS. The bible says to keep helping those who have 'doubts', not kick them out and ostracise them.

    However, I think the point is it is the DEGREE that someone does this thought that determines if he is d'd or not. For example, I have discussed my views regarding the order of events in the last days pertaining to Christs return and the 1914 thing with quite a few JW's, family, and even with an elder recently at a shepherding visit (that I had to request I might add). None have expressed shock at what I was saying or warned me of apostasty, etc. Many in fact sympathised (if that is the right word) with my feelings are the Generation thing. (there are tonnes of witnesses who have puzzled over this one you know.) The elder didn't chastise me for this, and didn't go running to the body of elders to say I should be hauled up for questioning. He listened and took in all that I was saying. He is, incidentally, a very caring elder who manifests a genuine concern for people, and in between his weighty and bogged down schedule of little meeting parts and administration matters, who tries hard to find time for those more or less 'on the fringes' of the congo, like a true shepherd should (goes searching for the stragglers, haha). Shortly after the shepherding visit he even rang me up and invited me to dinner and a social occasion with some other witnesses. I declined however.

    Anyway, I digress. The point I'm trying to make is I believe it is HOW FAR one tries to push a view diferent to their own. Someone like Olof Jonsson obviously was so cocksure that his newfound research and ideas was correct and that the JW's were so wrong in their current understanding that he aggressively pushed and pushed until, well, we saw what happened. If you do this in ANY organisation, ie, challenge aggressively enough those at the top you will inevitably suffer an equallye strong negative reaction. To take this point further, the Society do not expect us to believe in things without having pretty strong evidence they feel to back it up. Now even tho the overwhelming secular evidence does point to 587as opposed to 607, isn't it just a little freaky that World War 1 did start bang on 1914, followed by the Spanish Flu, economic collapse, then the second world War, etc etc...so can you see what I'm saying. Can you see how hard it is for JW's to let this go because of all the dramatic world events that started in this year and followed. Rev 12 - 'woe for the earth and see,for the devil has come down to you, having great anger, knowing his time is short...' I am skeptical of the 1914 thing, but I can EASILY see how history does APPEAR to strongly back this date up as having special signficance. The generation thing is a different matter however (they have insulted our intelligence a bit with that one, which is the MAIN bugbear I have with the Org at the moment). SO, it is not as if the present argument propounded by the WBTS is just so plainly dumb and ridiculous that anything new presented to overthrow it, like Olof Jonsson's research and new theories, is going to be instantly accepted and gulped down! One has to appreciate the enormity of the psychology behind all of this.

    Mr Jonsson was brave and bold to do what he did, and make this research available to all, but he paid the ultimate price for it in an organisation sense sadly, rightly or wrong. Could he have expected anything less. Did he really expect the GB to say "oh wow Mr Jonsson, you have had a revelation from God. We've been dying for someone to come up with this and sort out the anomalies that seem to be appearing in our 1914 thing. There's just no way there is the slightest bit of evidence at all for our 1914 belief,there's just no history in the last century that harmonizes with teh 1914 date and the 'sign' (so-called) Jesus gave to indicate the 'season' before Christ's return, and our chronologically is just so glaringly 100% way off. Here come fly to New York expenses paid and we'll begin re-writing the publications together".

    We do know from Ray Franz's books however that there ARE some of the GB who have indeed expressed concerns about the Society's chronology and there HAS been confusion and debate amongst them about what really is the truth on this. Brother Barry was it I think who said "I believe in this..and that...but this 1914 thing...we'll I'm just not so sure sometimes". So I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of the GB have indeed considered different ideas, theories, chronology and arguments, and probably quite likely Olof Jonsson's (and John Denton's, who has also sent his material to the GB - theres my plug for this totally independent bible researcher again). In coming years there could well be a dramatic change of teaching on this whole score...I wouldn't be surprised and half expect it. For something cherished and long held to be true to change, it's gonna take a slow filtering down often for the light to become apparent. Sometimes the dawn can seem to dawn slowly, creeping up on us. Other times it's like a bright light suddenly being turned eye, that we have to cover our eyes. The truth about the dodgy chronology of the GB may take time to seep into the psyche of the Organisation. Jehovah does allow error to exist for a while at times before finally cleansing and refining in the smelter.

    re DF'ing - It's hard to deny that there is quite obviously a lot of benefit to be gained (not talking about those who merely postulate different ideas) from 'removing the wicked man from among yourselves' when it comes to rank immorality that is done unrepentantly. It's what the bible teaches. What would become of a christian organisation if, for example, like many of the mainstream religions, they rationalised fornication, homosexuality, etc etc and allowed everyone to just stay in that religion. The congregation, church, flock, whatever u want to call it. Would I personally rather be in a religion that just says "oh come on in, don't get too worried if you're living in sin, committing adultery, ridiculing the bible'...Jesus will forgive you unconditionally, no questions asked, just accept him in your heart....do that and you're ALWAYS saved: etc etc, or would I rather be in one which set the pole high, that upholds and maintains a higher standard for it's followers, to keep the congregation as clean as possible (child molesters who hide in it aside). I'd rather have the latter. It may seem a bit rigid and suffocating at times, but there is also plenty of room for personal choice and freedom of conscience too.

    The trouble I have with the disfellowshipping arrangement and procedure that ones own family and loved ones are cut off. I feel this is going to far and the WBTS have got this wrong. It is emotional blackmail and cruel to do such a thing to problem. I've been there. It has always disturbed me this, even before I 'slipped off the wagon'. I have absolutely no issue with anyone who takes the WBTS to task for this, but I DO NOT agree that disfellowshipping per se is wrong.

    Agape always

    Torn

    Edited by - Torn on 13 November 2002 5:2:0

  • Torn
    Torn

    Hi Frank. I had spent about an hour preparing a detailed reply to your last message to me wherein you replied to my private email to you, but alas, when I hit 'submit reply' it just didn't appear in the thread...nnggaarrr! (pull my hair out). If I find time in the next week or so I will be sure to have another go at doing this. Not to try and win points against you Frank and nitpick (1 Tim 2:8; 6:4), but 'for the benefit' of anyone caring to read this thread, for what it's worth.

    In the meantime, I didn't say in my post that I PERSONALLY know ones who I consider have been left in a vacuum of some sort, did I. If I did I apologise for I didn't mean that. And if you want me to say it should really be 'a few', well, ok, that's fine. Maybe it is just a few. I don't know the whole number who have left the organisation so cannot give an accurate demographic and statistical representation expressed in one word of the English language that would do justice to the volume of such ones in comparison to the total number of JW's worldwide. Many, a few, whatever. Certainly 'quite a few' (how is that?) I've seen on this forum I see as falling into that category, ie, having lost sight of the Wood for the Trees doctrinally. If you feel I'm being judgement, so be it. For any JW to have turned their back on such precious truthssuch as the true identify of God, the truth about the condition of the dead, the truth about the resurrection hope, and so on and son on, and go back to the pagan myths and old lies as taught by Christendom in general is a very sad thing I feel. Sounds harsh this, but a spiritual 'returning to the vomit'. If one has decided to leave JW's because they feel it doesn't show any love, or it's ruined their family, or it does flip-flops of some of the more minor doctrines, well thats one thing, but to then reject wholesale the core truths as discovered by the early bible students after centuries these diamonds being buried and suppressed by the clergy and Christendom, well, that's entirely a different matter.

    And do you really feel I am inaccurate in saying that MOST, ie, NOT ALL, elders are sincere and honest God - fearing men? Do you sincerely and honest not believe that whenyou examine your heart Frank. Are JW's that bad that MOST elders are dishonest, not God-fearing and sincere?

    Cheers

    Torn

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