Keeping it in perspective

by Torn 103 Replies latest jw experiences

  • waiting
    waiting

    Howdy Frank, Tom & JT,

    Welcome to our forum for the New Guys. I haven't read this whole thread, but wanted to chime in. I met an elder who just "stepped down" a couple of months ago this past weekend. Been in the WT almost his whole life of 60 years.

    I don't believe he really questioned much in the past - and is in shellshock now. He's finally asking questions, and getting the same answers we got when we started looking around.

    My daughter met him also - and she told me later, she "just felt so sorry" for him, and remembers being in the same frame of mind. We all remember.

    Btw, Tom, I'm a jw woman in good standing - and a "faithful witness" for 30 years. I'm inactive for 3 years now. Nice to meet you. Hope you "READ, READ, READ." We can get aggressive here, to be sure; but there are many good posters & good people & good true information.

    Some jerks too. --> humor (for the humor impaired)

    waiting

    Edited by - waiting on 14 November 2002 10:56:52

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Dear Waiting,

    What a nice post! I hope the elderly ex-elder someday arrives at good answers and still has years of rejoicing ahead. Oh, how some of us can relate to him and wish we could be nearby to offer some encouragement!

    Frank

  • JT
    JT

    Waiting

    we look forward your posting YES WOMEN ARE WELCOME AS WELL SMILE

  • Quotes
    Quotes
    For myself, I am not going to throw the baby out with the water.

    Many here have tried to do the same, only to find that there is no baby. Instead, just a foul-smelling turd that was making the water get dirty. If you want to keep the turd and hold it close and call it a baby, that is your business. I don't understand it, but that is your business.

    Another thing to consider, put the shoe on the other foot. Really think about this: how would you react if someone you met in field service said "I know that {insert religion here} is not perfect, but I believe in 95% of what they say, and am going to stick with it. I think the errors you point out in {insert religion here} are unimportant compared to their believing and teaching {insert belief here}."

    Perhaps if the shoe were on the other foot, you would see it as a cop-out?

    Sorry to come on so strong. Welcome to the board, hope you stick around.

    Edited by - Quotes on 14 November 2002 13:36:58

  • Torn
    Torn

    Dear everyone...someone else on this forum recently brought my attention to a website that is like an answer to my prayers and has really spoken to me. It echoes perfectly the insight and honesty, yet balance and perspective, I have been looking for for the last few years, and reflects amazingly many of my thoughts and ideas on where the Organisation is right now in the eyes of Jehovah and Jesus and likely developments in the future.

    The website is www.e-watchman.com. It's a fairly new site, and I'd encourage anyone who is looking for a moderate, no bitterness or spleen-venting opinion to visit there and have a look. Depending on your own degree of antipathy for the WBTS you may find the information presented in this site very refreshing and reasonable.

    No doubt I'll still pop into this site now and then, and in the meantime, thanks to Frank, TJ and everyone for helping distill and refine my feelings and beliefs. It has been an excellent process in my experiencing a working through and reaffirmation of what I truly know is the truth and believe in. And don't worry I've been perusing this site for yonks, not just the last couple weeks.

    Unfortunately despite all your hard work, I'm pretty much exactly at the same place I was when I first joined this forum, and I know in my heart no would could ever convince me that JW's are the monstrous wicked organisation that so many here have convinced themselves it is, no matter how much one argues about flipflops, doctrinal changes, etc etc etc. In fact it will pain you all to hear that I now feel much more mellow towards the so called big bad 'organisation' than I have been for a long time.

    In summary, yes, JW's have some major flaws and problems at the moment, but Jehovah and the master Jesus are going to adversely Judge the Organisation in the future and do some major 'housecleaning' (as another postee put it). The paedophilia scandals, UN affiliation, and clinging to old chronology etc etc are demanding a judgement, and it is coming. But I can still see, thanks to God, very much the 'wood for the trees', the 'baby in the water', and 'the big picture'. I can still distinguish 'right AND wrong' - Heb 5:14, not block my mind to the right just because there is wrong.

    Agape love and prayers to you all. Romans 8:38, 39.

    Torn (no longer).

  • fjtoth
    fjtoth

    Torn,

    It saddens me that you've been deceived by the "Watchman" website. But that was logically to happen since you're still under the illusion that God operates through an "organization." The owner of that site has a huge imagination concerning prophecy, just as the WT Society always has. It's indeed sad to see otherwise reasonable persons fall for such unfounded and trivial speculations instead of heeding Jesus' clear warning against false prophets.

    Since God sent Jesus into the world, he has no "watchman" or "watchman class." "God, who long ago spoke on many occasions and in many ways to our forefathers by means of the prophets, has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things." (Heb 1:1, 2, NW) Jesus said that he is the way to the Father. (Jn 14:6) Any man or organization that steps between Jesus and a professed Christian is attempting to take the place of God's Son. The "Watchman" website doesn't point to Jesus. Instead, the owner in dreamy-eyed fashion points to a reformed and re-invigorated Watchtower Society. How sad it is to see you put your trust "in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation." (Ps 118:8; 146.3, NASB)

    Contrary to the illusion you continue to accept, Christ has never pronounced approval upon the WT Society over all other churches. Ever since the Society began thinking in those terms, it has seriously been in violation of Bible teachings such as the following: "Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." (Ro 14:4, NASB) "Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall." (1 Co 10:12, NASB) Despite such warnings, the Society continues without authorization from either God or Christ to brazenly condemn all others who make a sincere attempt at living according to Christ's teachings. The Society has taken Jesus' place in the minds of the people it teaches. And it has built that position upon a sandy foundation.

    I don't personally judge and condemn the members of the WT Society or others who believe that only JWs have God's truth. If I did, I would be just like them. Still, Jesus' warning serves to protect those who choose not to be misled: "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter." (Mt 7:19-21, NASB) How disastrous that some people confuse the will of the WT Society with the will of God!

    While I cannot and do not wish to judge you, Torn, I could not publicly claim to be a JW as you do. Neither could I conscientiously do what the owner of the "Watchman" website does. A genuine JW accepts the so-called "anointed ones" as God's channel. He may not in good conscience challenge what he has many times acknowledged as "God's true prophet-like organization." It isn't sincerely honest for him to say he is still a JW when he begins to believe and teach contrary to the "faithful and discreet slave class" of basic WT theology. It amounts to living a lie. In fact, it's living as a brazen hypocrite before the eyes of God. It is a contradiction to expect that a person living in such a way can have God's blessing and be a source of truth that leads to salvation.

    I am content and happy in the knowledge I now have about God, Christ and the Christian church. I feel my prayers are being answered beyond compare. I have found genuine truth seekers among people who attend church and people who do not. I feel many of Jehovah's Witnesses are also searching for the truth, just as I was when I belonged to their organization. And I believe God did not choose to open my eyes to where the truth may be found until he first led me to see clearly that he just doesn't work through any organization that was founded and developed by sinful men.

    My greatest spiritual blessings have come since I publicly renounced the WT Society as an instrument in the hands of God and Christ. I thank you for the opportunity you've given me to refine even more clearly in my own mind that I've taken the right stand. I pray that God will bless you in accordance with your sincere desire to know the truth that sets men free from the type of spiritual bondage to men that I experienced for most of my life.

    Frank

  • ballistic
    ballistic

    The more I look at the 'truth' objectively, the more it appears as a house of cards, a web of intricately balanced speculations.

    I found myself, last night, 'witnessing' about the 144,000 and the Great Crowd to a friend of mine. At some point in the conversation, the story seemed so incredulous that in order to continue with the explanation, I was forced to peel away the layers of bark and explain how the witnesses had this new light revealed to them chronologically. I did this by explaning how in the 1930s as the number of witnesses approached 144,000 it seemed apparent to the Governing Body that there must be a biblical explanation for the greater number and what would happen to them.

    When you analyse nearly all the core teachings in this way, including the 1914 chronology, you are left with the same conclusion. The witnesses beliefs could have only been shaped the way they have because of the evolution of their doctrine, made by the twists and turns of change. The realisation that it is not just partly wrong, but mostly wrong can come as a huge shock, just as if that house of cards has fallen; but the reality of it is like the cold light of day, like the falling away of the scales from the eyes.

    Having said all this, I am of the opinion that reasonable adults should have the freedom to believe what they will. But I strongly disagree that children should be 'brought up in it'. I'm not talking about the abuse issues or anything like that. I truly believe that as a young boy growing up in that religion stunted my growth on all fronts, including spirtiutally as I was not taught to think for myself.

  • DannyBear
    DannyBear

    Contrasting the comments of Frank Toth/RayFranz/COJ with fundementalist 'christians', should be an eye opener for those still holding onto a belief in the bible's message.

    There seems to be an almost peaceful or calm reflection of living the life of a christian, by author's like these. Displaying a more sacred honor for actual words recorded in the bible, rather than some feeble attempt to mold or engineer the stories to fit the conjecture or should I say prophetic pronouncements of men. Ballistic above making a very strong case, in this regard.

    Even with the finese and warm spirit of 'christian love' these and other bible believer's make, there still remains one truly unanswered dilema.

    Does God Almighty really need a compilation of 66 books, culled from 100 plus contributor's,over centuries of time, to explain himself? Does this wonderous, obviously magnificent creator, even have the slightest interest in one class (christian, jew, muslim, etc) of believer over another?

    When all is said and done, FAITH is at the core of all belief in god's or a particular religious tenent. Since the definition of faith is very clear to all. On what basis can anyone write or proclaim God's support/attention to one's chosen faith?

    So in reality it means very little the method or manner one chooses to 'witness' about thier chosen faith. It all is subjective, and wide open for skeptisism.

    Somehow though when author's or speaker's like the above mentioned, take the time and patience to at least adopt the personality/traits of thier chosen 'god', gives thier words more weight and authority.

    I commend them for this. But I also must continue to point the reality: faith 'belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.'

    Danny

  • JT
    JT
    Unfortunately despite all your hard work, I'm pretty much exactly at the same place I was when I first joined this forum, and I know in my heart no would could ever convince me that JW's are the monstrous wicked organisation that so many here have convinced themselves it is, no matter how much one argues about flipflops, doctrinal changes, etc etc etc. In fact it will pain you all to hear that I now feel much more mellow towards the so called big bad 'organisation' than I have been for a long time.

    In summary, yes, JW's have some major flaws and problems at the moment, but Jehovah and the master Jesus are going to adversely Judge the Organisation in the future and do some major 'housecleaning' (as another postee put it). The paedophilia scandals, UN affiliation, and clinging to old chronology etc etc are demanding a judgement, and it is coming. But I can still see, thanks to God, very much the 'wood for the trees', the 'baby in the water', and 'the big picture'. I can still distinguish 'right AND wrong' - Heb 5:14, not block my mind to the right just because there is wrong.

    This is perhaps the most powerful post i have ever read on the net in the6 yrs i have been on-

    this post clearly show the power of a Cult, where a person can see and smell "Sh!T" on thier shoes and still swear out they stepped into some Perfume

    All I can say to you Tom is to do me and all the others one big a FAVOR and i beg of you please do this.

    SAVE THIS POST OF YOURS and in 2yr, 5 yrs perhaps more you are going to look back and literally CURSE YOURSELF OUT

    many of us here on this site ONLY WISH that we had the information that you now have on the org 10-15-25+ yrs ago our lives would have been so different

    SO PLEASE I BEG YOU SAVE YOUR LAST POST ABOVE ESP THE QUOTE I HIGHLIGHTED

    PLEASE

  • IslandWoman
    IslandWoman

    Frank wrote:

    While I cannot and do not wish to judge you, Torn, I could not publicly claim to be a JW as you do. Neither could I conscientiously do what the owner of the "Watchman" website does.

    It's nice to read "I cannot and do not wish to judge you", from a Christian but just a third sentence later that fine sentiment is forgotten.

    ****************************************************************************************************************

    A genuine JW accepts the so-called "anointed ones" as God's channel.

    Peter to Jesus: A genuine Jew accepts the authority of God's channel, the Priests.

    He may not in good conscience challenge what he has many times acknowledged as "God's true prophet-like organization."

    Peter to Jesus: A genuine Jew may not in good conscience challenge what he has many times acknowledged as God's true prophet-like organization, the Priests.

    It isn't sincerely honest for him to say he is still a JW when he begins to believe and teach contrary to the "faithful and discreet slave class" of basic WT theology. It amounts to living a lie.

    Peter to Jesus: It isn't sincerely honest for a Jew to say his is still a Jew when he begins to believe and teach contrary to the Priests theology. It amounts to living a lie.

    In fact, it's living as a brazen hypocrite before the eyes of God.

    Peter to Jesus: In fact, such a Jew is a brazen hypocrite before the eyes of God.

    It is a contradiction to expect that a person living in such a way can have God's blessing and be a source of truth that leads to salvation.

    Peter to Jesus: It is a contradiction to expect that a Jew living in such a way can have God's blessing and be a source of truth that leads to salvation.

    Matthew 16:23

    **************************************************************************************************

    Frank, you did well at first when you said you did not judge. Too bad you did not keep your word.

    Please stop and take a look at what you are doing. God calls and directs according to his own will not yours.

    IW

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