I agree with SYN! It IS nice to see a thoughtful newbie.
Our discussion here is going along familiar lines. Sorry, Torn, but your views may not be as "unorthodox" as you fear! I can tell you that there are many others who are here in Oz and share your views of disquiet. I know, for example, that one of our posters, Younger Tom, has views very similar to yours. We haven't "heard" from him for a while. Perhaps he'll read this and make a comment?
There was one comment I must comment upon:
it is the reprehensible proud and fleecing leaders of these mammoth false religious edifices who will be held accountable at the ruination of Babylon The Great.
This is very much Watchtower-ese and I've expressed it in many talks over the years......but is it true? A few years ago i set out to find out for myself. I met with leaders from various church denominations. Some of them I've become good friends with and have shared some "close" moments with them and their families. I've enjoyed many hours in discussing Bible topics and beliefs. This is not to say I agree with everything, but then, I don't HAVE to, do I? Have I found it proved that the clergy are "proud and fleecing leaders"? No, far from it. I've grown to know men who subsist on an allowance, just like WTS full-time workers. Their wives do secular work to support the families. Proud? Not at all, just the opposite, with a humble reliance on their God.
For your interest, you may like to see a contrast that I posted on another thread. It serves to illustrate what I've found:
In his Presidential Address to the 2002 Synod, Archbishop of Sydney Peter Jensen said:
"However, not all my efforts have been devoted to the Mission as such. Let me say that the single most significant thing which has diverted me from it has been the task of attending to issues of sexual abuse. But has it been a diversion from mission, or integral to it? This may well reflect one of the barriers to evangelism that we are going to find in the community, as our good name has been compromised. Our reputation cannot be restored by acting as though events never occurred. We are going to have to learn once more what it is to live by grace and thus to show repentance as a community. Indeed, there is a deep connection between the Mission and our response to this problem. The Diocese as a whole has a good reputation for care with integrity in churches, schools, welfare work, retirement villages. But shameful cases of abuse of trust do exist, and, as we look back at our history we see that we have not always handled matters well. I do not claim to have responded adequately in all cases either, but I am seeking to be fair, to redress wrongs and to prevent recurrences.
"Ministry is a character business; lose your character and, effectively, you lose your ministry. Of course there is grace and forgiveness for those who have erred; but part of the very business of coming to grips with what we have done is the recognition by our erring pastors or lay leaders that various forms of ministry are no longer an option. Sometimes this involves the loss of a position or a licence; sometimes the surrender or deprivation of orders. On the broader front of our own church's life, there is also need for public contrition and apology as well as an active care for victims. If the public recognition of our weaknesses brings our church into disrepute, it is still necessary to live the truth. It may be that we will all more effectively witness to the grace of God by living under it ourselves: but this involves painful repentance, not easy grace."
This statement may be contrasted to the public statements of officers of the WTS on the same topic. Is there a similar "contrition" and a willingness as shown by this statement: If the public recognition of our weaknesses brings our church into disrepute, it is still necessary to live the truth. ?
See the latest letter to bodies of elders in Australia from the WTS Australia Branch:
WATCHTOWER
BIBLE AND TRACT SOCIETY OF AUSTRALIA
BOX 280, INGLEBURN, NSW 1890 AUSTRALIA
ABN 42 002 861 226
PHONE: (02) 9829 5800
FAX: (02) 9829 3618
October 10, 2002
TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS IN AUSTRALIA
Dear Brothers:
Some questions have arisen concerning the statement on page 2 of our letter To All Congregations in Australia dated August 28, 2002: "We have long instructed elders to report allegations of child abuse to the authorities where required by law to do so, even where there is only one witness." This statement needs to be understood in the following context: (1) This was a general letter addressed to the congregation and not specifically to the elders; and (2) the Society has long instructed elders to follow the following procedure:
"When elders receive reports of physical or sexual abuse of a child, they should contact the Society's Legal Department immediately. Victims of such abuse need to be protected from further danger."-See letter AB:AS To All Bodies of Elders, August 25, 1989, page 3.
"When a member of the congregation is accused of child molestation, the elders should contact the Society immediately. Some states make it mandatory that elders report an accusation to the proper authorities but other states do not. ... Before speaking to the one accused, the elders should contact the Society."-See letter SA To All Bodies of Elders, November 1, 1995, page 1.
It must be appreciated that the question of child abuse is a complicated matter and that there can be no blanket direction given to the elders throughout the country, or even state by state. Whether or not they are "required by law to do so," can only be determined at the time when elders contact the Society after receiving a report of child abuse. If the law requires them to report the matter, the Society has always, at that time, advised-elders to do so. Since there is no clear precise legal definition of "child abuse," and since laws may vary from state to state and are changed from time to time, it is only when all the facts of a particular case are available that proper direction can be given in such matters. Some elders have been concerned about the question of confidentiality, having in mind what the Scriptures say on the subject. (Proverbs 11:13; 15:22) If, after contacting the Society, it is determined that the elders should report a matter such as child abuse to the authorities, it would not be considered to be a breach of confidentiality to make such a report. At times, there may be other Bible principles that must be weighed against the need for confidentiality. (For example, see Awake! January 22, 1985, page 8.) Nevertheless, elders should always be conscious of their Scriptural responsibility to keep matters confidential. In this way they can be "like a hiding place from the wind and a place of concealment from the rainstorm." (Isaiah 32:2; See also The Watchtower April 1, 1971, pages 222-224.) However, there are times when elders must reveal confidential matters in order to protect the sheep. For example, Our Kingdom Ministry, April 1999, on page 7, stated:
"The question has been asked whether elders should supply information to secular authorities when they learn that a brother or sister has been involved in a serious crime. ... If an elder learns of some serious crime on the part of a member of the congregation, they may, in some circumstances, be obliged to report the matter, or provide information to secular authorities."
A NONPROFIT CORPORATION - INCORPORATED IN NEW SOUTH WALES
TO ALL BODIES OF ELDERS IN AUSTRALIA
October 10, 2002
Page 2
In all such cases, the elders would want to reach any decision to report the matter or provide information to secular authorities only after consultation with the Society, as stated in Our Kingdom Ministry:
"Even in such cases, it is important that the elders maintain confidentiality to the extent possible, and elders should always contact the Society before providing any information on confidential matters to secular authorities."
We also want to encourage you to continue providing follow-up assistance for those who have been victims of child abuse. From time to time, the Society has provided assistance to elders to help them to become more effective shepherds, genuinely interested in the welfare of individuals under their care. (1 Peter 5:2.) For example, some helpful articles are: "Help for Victims of Incest"-The Watchtower, October l, 1983; "Child Molesting-Every Mother's Nightmare" Awake! January 22, 1985; "How Can We Protect Our Children?" and "Prevention in the Home" Awake! October 8, 1993; and "Let Us Abhor What Is Wicked!"-The Watchtower, January l, 1997. While we do not take a secular approach in this regard, by imitating the tender qualities of our loving heavenly Father, Jehovah, and his Son, Jesus, much good can be accomplished in rendering assistance to those who have experienced abuse, or who have other distressing circumstances to deal with.-Matthew 11:28, 29.
To assist in protecting our young children, we are now asking the body of elders to write to the Society before allowing a former child molester to receive any privileges in the congregation that would indicate congregational approval. This would include the handling of microphones, being an attendant, working with the literature, volunteering at a convention or assembly, or even auxiliary pioneering.
We appreciate the time and effort you brothers expend in shepherding the sheep. Please accept our very warm Christian love and greetings.
Your brothers,
Watchtower B.&T. Society
O F A U S T R A L I A
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=39966&site=3
Which organisation shows a "contrite heart"? Does the WTS have "honest" leaders? Check this out from another thread:
Note that in the report, the Australia Branch co-ordinator responded to the program in a statement:
In a statement to Sunday, the President of the Watchtower Society of Australia, Harold "Viv" Mouritz, declines to be interviewed but says: "My inquiries indicate that the elders involved did not give instructions not to report the abuse to the police." Mr Mouritz denies all knowledge of the concept of "theocratic warfare" and expresses the churchs abhorrence of child abuse.
Now note what past issues of The Watchtower have stated:
In carnal warfare it is essential that officers and other personnel have briefing sessions so as to be kept up-to-date on the movements on the battlefield and the latest enemy strategy. Likewise, our meetings at the Kingdom Hall or elsewhere are vital so that we may be regularly strengthened by the Word of God and his holy spirit, as well as being kept alert to the movements of the enemy. March 1, 1983 p19
As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with Gods foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interests of Gods cause, it is proper to hide the truth from Gods enemies. June 1, 1960 p 352
Perhaps some will wonder as to where the line is to be drawn between use of theocratic war strategy in hiding the truth and the telling of lies. ................Lies are untruths told for selfish reasons and which work injury to others. Satan told a lie to Eve that worked great harm to her and all the human race. Ananias and Sapphira told lies for selfish reasons. But hiding the truth, which he is not entitled to know, from an enemy does not harm him, especially when he would use such information to harm others who are innocent. May 1, 1957 p 285
Who are we to believe?
No, Torn, I have not found that church leaders are the fat, greedy, fleecing men (and women) that Joe Rutherford proclaimed in his books and journals.
Cheers, Ozzie
Edited by - ozziepost on 11 November 2002 6:46:39
