Lust For Glory Alienating The Majority?

by Englishman 70 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

Jerry Bergman

I hesitate to jump in here because I do not understand fully what happened. I can tell you that I met Bill Bowen and heard him speak this summer and was extremely impressed with him. He was very articulate, well spoken with clear concerns but he was not unreasonable or off the wall. He had a good understanding of the issues and was able to deal with his situation very well, to say the least. We are all imperfect and the key is do we learn from our mistakes.
Pathofthorns

I think everyone is trying to balance appreciation for the work of a good man with that same person's failure to have resolved a bad situation that he created.
Further comment on the subject is pointless, yet continued silence from the Silentlambs group allows this roadblock to remain.
How long will the silence continue?
Path
RevMalk

I think everyone is trying to balance appreciation for the work of a good man with that same person's failure to have resolved a bad situation that he created.
Further comment on the subject is pointless, yet continued silence from the Silentlambs group allows this roadblock to remain.
How long will the silence continue?
Path

I know I have said (actually a couple of times) that I am through with this board, but this is absolutely my last post. Simon, please do me a huge favor, and delete my username, so I'm no longer 'tempted' to defend myself.
I have seen quite a bit of hypocrisy in my lifetime, as we all have. But never in my life to this extent. Path asks about silence from the 'silentlambs group', and that's a great question/comment, and under normal circumstance would scream from a legitimate answer. Unfortunately Path, when anyone from the 'silentlambs group' attempts to answer the questions you all have, they are attacked. Some with logic, some with sincere hearts, but most with cruel intentions. I personally think that LoneWolf should be ashamed of him/herself (I'm assuming him?). The level of hypocrisy and narrow-mindedness that this person portrays is astronomical. To sit here and do to another human being exactly what he is trying to make us all believe to be this 'horrible' crime, is just amazing. I did nothing to this person, I have never even acknowledged their presence. And to attack me the way they did, was not only cruel but evil. Some of you have excellent points, as I have stated. For the most part I don't hold your opinions, but I try my best to show respect. Those of you that are using logic with a sincere heart should not be pleased to have such a person speaking in your behalf. At the very least you should be embarrassed, if not enraged. We've all come here for support, comfort, and perhaps an escape from the torment we feel from the abuses mention by E-man, who was not at all off base when he showed the importance of these things. Whether I, or any of you, hold the opinions of LoneWolf or not, on any topic, no-one deserves the disrespect he shows. God forbid someone should have a different opinion on a board that's supposed to uphold freedom of opinion. Simon has his hands full with guys like this, and I feel for him. Simon and E-man have always shown respect for me, whether we agree or not, and I would hope that you would all learn a thing or two from that example. I came back here after keeping silent for weeks on this topic, and I held the same opinion that Path holds now. That Bill should speak up and answer for his actions. I see now why he chose not to. Do any of you think that he could possibly have gotten a fair chance here, with unreasonable, and hypocritical people such as this, that refuse to show ANY fellow man the respect they deserve? Once the person attacks on Bill and the silentlambs cause started steamrolling (which was immediate), there was no stopping it, no matter what anyone said or did. I don't think Bill could have made cruel hearted people such as this understand, not even if he had recanted on the entire issue. Many people wonder how to save their JW family and friends......well, when garbage like this takes place, exactly like the Watchtower says it will, what do you expect? This is the garbage can they were speaking of all that time. Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not agreeing with the society on this, the actions here do it for me. The simple fact of the matter is, a large percentage of former JWs become trash, with no respect for anyone, not even themselves. Some can say it's their (Watctower's) fault, but that's not true. We're big people, we know how to treat one another. When and if any of my family or friends, who are currently JW, start questioning their faith, I pray to God or whoever is out there that they do not come here. I apologize Simon, this has nothing to do with you, it's the sort that have made this place filthy. I know you've tried your best, and it's a losing battle for you.
Let me explain to you people, who find it so easy to attack me personally. I NEVER said Ray Franz was a bad person. I don't know the man, and I will not pass judgment on someone I don't know, or on actions I have not seen myself. To say the things that have been said to me by LoneWolf is doing exactly what you are all accusing Bill of doing. Will there be several hundred threads defending me, or several hundred threads condemning LoneWolf? Of course not, because in the name of popular opinion, he'll get away with it. It's all fine and good because I am no-one, and LoneWolf is no-one. We've never really left the JW mentality have we? We're only arguing about these men because we've placed them on pedestals. Where'd we learn that from? Apparently in the amount of time that each and every one of us has been out of 'captivity', we've not learned one thing. As a matter of fact we've not left our captive minds at all.
As I write this, the thoughts of the comments this will receive makes me shudder. I see them in my mind, and that's a sad thing. I've seen them over and over and over again on this board. And yet we condemn another man for doing what some consider to be the same. I think we've all gotten carried away with this, and as I kept saying, it serves no-one - It helps no-one. Will this harm the silentlambs cause? Some think so, and I have worried a bit myself at times. Will this hurt Ray Franz? I'm sure he's hurt to some extent, he's human. Will this hurt all of you? Possibly, because you could be next to suffer the wrath of people just like LoneWolf. This sort of thing is abuse people. We supposedly left this all behind us. I will not be stomped into the ground anymore. I left that once before. I spent many years not being able to voice my opinion, in the name of God. Am I to stay here and take the same abuse in the name of God only knows what? Of course no-one here cares whether I live or die.....just more evidence that I don't belong here, and more evidence of the mentality carried over from years of abusive brainwashing. It's time to wake up everyone, please don't continue to do this to one another, you're only harming yourselves. I say these things because I care about myself, of course, but I say these things because there are many here I care about. I also say it because I have concern for all here, even LoneWolf. I hope that he/she learns from their experiences here, and I hope in the future those experiences are positive ones. The negativity will only harm you Lone, and the abusive, cruel attitude you carry will only drag YOU down. It's not healthy, not mentally, not physically and not spiritually (not meaning religiously).
I am shocked by the comments made, and recently I've had the attitude to send it right back, once I've been attacked first. Perhaps some that know me have seen the change in me over the past week. I almost fell into it, I was almost dragged down, and that's why I must depart while I have a chance. I apologize to anyone whom I might have offended over the past few days. My actions were of course in retaliation, and out of the 'norm' for me, but that's no excuse. Again, I am a grown man, and I know how you're suppose to treat your fellow man, and I fell short of my own conscience and personal morals.
Most probably have not made it this far, as this is quite a bit to read, and I apologize for that (I hate long posts ), but I bid you all farewell, and I hope for you to find happy, fulfilling lives. I hope that you all find what you're looking for, and you find it well. To LoneWolf, although you probably don't care, and I'm almost positive you will hammer me after this post, I forgive you, and I hope for the best for you and yours. Please accept my apologies for not answering any comments that might be made, as I cannot mentally handle this place any more. And again, Simon, please remove my membership, and thank you for all the help you have provided me during my 'stay' here. G'day E-man, take it easy ol' boy, ok?
One more thing, LoneWolf, if you do nothing else, please read through these comments, and ask yourself "Why?", as I have. It will surely assist you in your healing process, if that is your goal.
Thank you all for everything.
RevMalk

<Bold Added>
No, the issue should not be dead. Especially that is so when knotheads like you continue to slander other people's good name. Your asinine words "it's just not his bag to save innocent children" is a good case in point. Where do you come off assuming anything about what he feels about anything? I can think of about 5 different scenarios where he would not feel free to speak up now --- or even ever.
The time when this subject should die is whenever numbskulls like you quit your nonsense, and not before. If that takes 5 days, 50 months, or 500 years, that's tough. You need to get it through your thick skulls that you don't have that kind of intelligence. If it takes a sledgehammer to do it, so be it.

RevMalk --- Good lord, either you didn't read my post at all or your reading comprehension level registers right around the square root of a negative one. And what's this about an IQ of 180 something? Are you sure you didn't get the decimal in the wrong place?
To keep going on and on and on with this to the benefit of no-one.
I'm glad you agree. So take your medicine like a man, stop your whining and let's get on with the program.
Personal cruel attacks on a fellow man for having an opinion (and how many others on this board Lone?) Shame on you for being the hypocrite you are. I hope you Don't feel good about yourself, because I hope that you'll learn one day that this is not normal....You need help, and I mean that literally. I honestly, truly, and sincerely hope that one day you'll find that help. Until then, fire at will, you'll be kicking a man while he's down and defenseless, that's right up your alley I'm suspecting.
edited to fix a spelling mistake - Maybe LoneWolf is right, I am stupid
Edited by - RevMalk on 25 November 2002 3:17:24
Simon

RevMalk. People were simply responding to what was posted by you - it is an emotive topic and feelings were running high.
It is easy to take snippets of replies out of topics like this and make it look as though someone was being particularly nasty. For instance, you posted:
Grow up for Christ's sake. Have you really nothing better to do than this?
I was talking to minimus you stupid ass.
Oh Please Farkel. You can't hide your stupidity nor your major "F-up". You mistakenly thought I was speaking to you, because you are uneducated, unrefined, and you don't understand words in English. You F'd up, you know it, I know it and everyone here knows it.
So why don't you stick your pointy little tail between your grimey legs, and walk off into Farkel world, with your red "I screwed up" face and retain some of the dignity you might still have left.
Again, you make it sound as though Bill Bowen was attacked on this forum. This is incorrect. He and "a.n.other" chose to start making accusations about Ray Franz and other people chose to answer them. Just because they disagreed with Bill and said so does not mean they had was cruel intentions or that they don't support abuse victims. Sometimes, we all do things that only our real friends will tell us about ... I don't think having 'yes' men (or women) who aren't willing to stand up and disagree over things is very healthy.
When and if any of my family or friends, who are currently JW, start questioning their faith, I pray to God or whoever is out there that they do not come here. I apologize Simon, this has nothing to do with you, it's the sort that have made this place filthy. I know you've tried your best, and it's a losing battle for you.
Saying this place is filthy is a tad insulting. It isn't. I remind you again that this whole Bill/Ray controversy was started by Bill and one of his supporters. It has also been repeated on 'your' forum so anyone visiting that is likely to get the same, off putting vibes there too I'm afraid.
RevMalk

RevMalk. People were simply responding to what was posted by you - it is an emotive topic and feelings were running high.
It is easy to take snippets of replies out of topics like this and make it look as though someone was being particularly nasty. For instance, you posted:

Grow up for Christ's sake. Have you really nothing better to do than this?
I was talking to minimus you stupid ass.
Oh Please Farkel. You can't hide your stupidity nor your major "F-up". You mistakenly thought I was speaking to you, because you are uneducated, unrefined, and you don't understand words in English. You F'd up, you know it, I know it and everyone here knows it.
So why don't you stick your pointy little tail between your grimey legs, and walk off into Farkel world, with your red "I screwed up" face and retain some of the dignity you might still have left.
This is all true Simon. I agree 100%, I did say those things, but again they were in my defense, and again, I noted above that it didn't make it right, and I apologized for doing so. In each and every one of those comments I was attacked first, as admitted by Farkel in that one thread. ( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=40788&site=3&page=3)
But still, I apologized, I saw my wrong.
This particular thread I was AGREEING with Farkel, even after he called minimus an idiot, then he turned around (because he thought I was DISAGREEING with him, and started calling me filthy names (anyone can check the thread and see clearly what happened), which is perfectly ok with you, even though you come to me for favors back channel when someone merely mentions your name on silentlambs, as a matter of fact, it was ~~DungBeetle~~ you had a problem with, JUST because she mentioned being kicked off this site. To which your reply involved calling HER names, and you were upset that your post was edited. You sent several emails to me complaining and threatening to take the silentlambs link off your site (to which I replied "But I thought the link was there because you cared about the victims"). In the end I deleted the entire thread, against my better judgment, but I deleted it out of common courtesy, and because I was tired of being in the middle and I saw no sense to it being there. For this I need to apologize to ~~gsark/DungBeetle~~. Of course it was NOTHING against her, and I saw nothing she did wrong in the thread, I was just tired of it.
Also, I never said that disagreeing with Bill was an attack. To the contrary, I said 'some' have cruel intentions while others have sincere intentions, and that is always the case with any topic on this board. Also, and this is further proof to anyone that thinks I am a "Bill" follower (and Simon, you know this is not true already), I don't agree with it being on silentlambs either. I've said it several times, I wish it never happened, I wish it were never posted anywhere.
The only time I was out of line before being provoked was my comments to E-man (because I misunderstood), which I also apologize for. However, he was good about it, and treated me with decency and respect, and once again I'll say it, some here should learn from him. And as for Bill Bowen, no matter what I said to stick up for him, or the silentlambs cause was, on the same token, no reason to attack my intelligence.
I did not mean any offense with the 'filthy' remark, as I stated. There are some filthy people here, and yes I started to fall into it, so of course I can see where it can happen. I've made my apologies and although I don't need to say it again, I will:
I apologize to anyone whom I might have offended in the past few days. And although I was attacked first, and the comments were made in defense, I was wrong. How many times do I have to say it Simon?
Again, you make it sound as though Bill Bowen was attacked on this forum. This is incorrect. He and "a.n.other" chose to start making accusations about Ray Franz and other people chose to answer them. Just because they disagreed with Bill and said so does not mean they had was cruel intentions or that they don't support abuse victims. Sometimes, we all do things that only our real friends will tell us about ... I don't think having 'yes' men (or women) who aren't willing to stand up and disagree over things is very healthy.
When and if any of my family or friends, who are currently JW, start questioning their faith, I pray to God or whoever is out there that they do not come here. I apologize Simon, this has nothing to do with you, it's the sort that have made this place filthy. I know you've tried your best, and it's a losing battle for you.
Saying this place is filthy is a tad insulting. It isn't. I remind you again that this whole Bill/Ray controversy was started by Bill and one of his supporters. It has also been repeated on 'your' forum so anyone visiting that is likely to get the same, off putting vibes there too I'm afraid.
I'm not the only one here that finds these things offensive, wrong and hurtful. I'm not the only one here that sees this abuse running rampant being a potential problem. I refer you to this thread, which of course you've already seen:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=41111&site=3
And of course Farkel is on there insulting people again, but that's ok right? He's a Veteran!
And don't forget, you still owe me a Beer when I get to London, and if you don't delete my membership (I can't seem to control myself from posting) I'll make it two
- Spelling again dammit

Edited by - RevMalk on 25 November 2002 4:17:37
Simon

... even though you come to me for favors back channel when someone merely mentions your name on silentlambs, as a matter of fact, it was ~~DungBeetle~~ you had a problem with, JUST because she mentioned being kicked off this site. To which your reply involved calling HER names, and you were upset that your post was edited. You sent several emails to me complaining and threatening to take the silentlambs link off your site (to which I replied "But I thought the link was there because you cared about the victims"). In the end I deleted the entire thread, against my better judgment, but I deleted it out of common courtesy, and because I was tired of being in the middle and I saw no sense to it being there. For this I need to apologize to ~~gsark/DungBeetle~~. Of course it was NOTHING against her, and I saw nothing she did wrong in the thread, I was just tired of it.

This is incorrect.
Dungbeetle posted on silentlambs complaining that she had been 'disfellowshipped' from here when in fact she had asked to be deactivated some time ago but had since been creating other accounts but claiming that she had not. In total, she had 5 accounts here. She also said that I had not replied to her emails, again, another lie.
I replied on the forum with a simple statement saying that the accounts had been deactivated because she had 5 duplicate accounts and was telling lies about me. No name calling at all despite what you claim. I suggested that she email me if she still had a problem as I thought it was not the sort of thing that the silentlambs forum needed to start off with.
While her accusations about me were left untouched, my reply was silently edited to make me look really lame (I wonder who did that?) which is why I emailed you about it. I did not complain and threaten to take silentlambs links off my website but was pointing out that I thought it was better if we could resolve things sensibly instead of things escalating and becoming silly.
I fail to see your problem with the topic you linked to ... perhaps you could point out what it is?
Simon

I didn't notice this first time through:
I've had it with this place, and yes of course that will make you all happy.....get the silentlambs supporters out of here. That was the plan right?
Well, history will speak for itself, and history will show who did the real work, and who really sacrificed their lives to help others.
You guys are doing good work here. Inciting hatred and encouraging the mental breakdown of anyone who has a different opinion of you all.
The thought of this board and this site standing for what is right is ridiculous.
silentlambs will move on without any of your support, and furthermore as far as I'm concerned doesn't need your support.
You people are all better off here, doing nothing for anyone, that's about all you're good for, so enjoy it.
This is frankly rediculous. We are certainly not driving silentlambs or silentlambs supporters away and they will always be welcome here and I for one am more than happy to support them. However, I do not go along with the attitude that some have expressed which is "I'm a silentlambs advocate so I should be allowed to say what I want without being challenged". I do not think that the majority of silentlambs would want this either but I do not presume to speak for so many people.
RevMalk

I did not complain and threaten to take silentlambs links off my website but was pointing out that I thought it was better if we could resolve things sensibly instead of things escalating and becoming silly.

Simon,
I've always had the utmost respect for you. Now I can't believe you are flat out lying. This is shocking. Oh, by the way, I was referring to you calling her a liar as name calling. I suppose perhaps I could have stated that more clear, I didn't mean to make it look any different than it was.
As for the post above, I'm merely pointing out that I am not the only one here that thinks the abuse and scum running haywire here is not healthy. For any of us, and for any JWs that may stumble on the board, which was also my point when I said:
When and if any of my family or friends, who are currently JW, start questioning their faith, I pray to God or whoever is out there that they do not come here. I apologize Simon, this has nothing to do with you, it's the sort that have made this place filthy. I know you've tried your best, and it's a losing battle for you.
Now, about your being dishonest, which is still shocking to me, and I'll quote you again:
I did not complain and threaten to take silentlambs links off my website but was pointing out that I thought it was better if we could resolve things sensibly instead of things escalating and becoming silly.
I refer you to our emails, which of course you know all about. It's in your box as well:
I've edited only to add BOLD, and areas in RED
----- Original Message -----
From: "Simon Green" <[email protected]
To: <[email protected]
Sent: Monday, November 04, 2002 6:09 AM
Subject: Dungbeetle's comments to me on SL forum
(reply sent by direct email instead of forum PM for reasons that will
become apparent)
I can understand the difficulties you face convincing people of doing
things differently.
On a slightly different note, I see that my reply to dungbeetle has
been
edited out while her accusations against me have been allowed to remain
and
she has also added some more of her spin on things.
I know what she is saying (and how she says things) may sound
believable
but I must warn you that none of it is true and she is once again
twisting
things.
We have been subject to what can only be described as a long,
protracted
'hate' campaign by her (yes, I know this sounds extreme but it is true)
and
do not intend to sit idly by while she uses yet another forum to attack
us
and spread more lies, especially if any response I make, however mild, is
removed (I strongly suspect she is one of the moderators and has done
this
herself).
We are not the only people she has done this to or who are being
affected
by this and I am not making wild accusations without having evidence to
back
it up.
Be careful of her or you may find the forum does not get used for it's
intended purpose. I know a great deal about her and what she is like and
how
she manipulates things and I warn you that she is starting to do the
excact
same thing on your forum as she did on mine.
I would prefer to get this matter sorted out properly as I would hate
to
have to start replying to her from my site (which I will do if I have to)
or
getting really petty and removing links to silentlambs. However, I'm
starting to get really angry about what she has been doing and will do
whatever I need to because it really is getting beyond a joke.
Hopefully, we can resolve this amicably.
Regards
- Simon
You didn't threaten to remove the silentlambs links from your site Simon? So what does this mean?:
"or getting really petty and removing links to silentlambs. However, I'm starting to get really angry about what she has been doing and will do whatever I need to because it really is getting beyond a joke."
I thought you were trustworthy if nothing else. You're suppose to be an example. Some people here look up to you, and here you've flat out lied to everyone on this board.
Regarding this quote:
This is frankly rediculous. We are certainly not driving silentlambs or silentlambs supporters away and they will always be welcome here and I for one am more than happy to support them. However, I do not go along with the attitude that some have expressed which is "I'm a silentlambs advocate so I should be allowed to say what I want without being challenged". I do not think that the majority of silentlambs would want this either but I do not presume to speak for so many people.
I hear threats of the links for silentlambs being taken off the site, and I see anyone who supports Bill or silentlambs being bashed, insulted, and abused, and I'm suppose to believe this? And I agree with you, silentlambs supporters shouldn't be able to say and do what they want if it's hurting someone else, or being challenged. There's a difference between insulting someone and challenging their opinions. A mixture of opinions is the best thing for any cause, negativity is not.
While her accusations about me were left untouched, my reply was silently edited to make me look really lame (I wonder who did that?) which is why I emailed you about it. I did not complain and threaten to take silentlambs links off my website but was pointing out that I thought it was better if we could resolve things sensibly instead of things escalating and becoming silly.
For what it's worth, I did not edit your post. The only thing I did on that post was comment that I thought the problem between you and ~~DungBeetle~~ should not be spilled over from your board, or anywhere else. That silentlambs was a whole new game, and that the board was dedicated to the victims, and we don't need this negativity. That comment was before you started ranting and raving, but still I did not edit your post. It was another Moderator on the board, and no, it was not ~~DungBeetle~~, this I am sure of. It's funny to note that when you need help on silentlambs, you wish to resolve it via email, and you get exactly what you want. But when it comes to me, it's a whole new ballgame. I could have gone on your post and asked you to take it elsewhere, or hammered you in some other way, but I did not. I spoke with you in private, and we handled it with no problems, and you even got what you asked for. When it comes to me, you couldn't just leave it alone and delete my membership could you? You had to try and embarrass me, and make me look like the fool. Well, I may look like a fool, and I may look like I haven't a clue what I'm talking about, and I may look to others (thanks to you), that I am this name calling abusive person without being provoked, but at least I don't look like a liar. Liars deserve no respect. They're worse than people like Farkel and Lonewolf. I have to give at least Farkel some credit. On the thread where you took my comments out of context, he admitted to misunderstanding me and attacking me first (although that didn't slow his attacks down any). He may be alot of things, but judging from that, at least he's not a liar. How do you expect anyone to believe you in situations like ~~DungBeetle~~, if you can't tell the truth about this? How do we know what else you lie about, or have lied about? Oh, I know, you'll deny these emails, and ever saying the things you've said. You have to cover yourself. And everyone will eat it up. Yet more proof that the people around here have not lost that 'Watchtower' mentality. The Watchtower taught us to have a co-dependent attitude, and that carries right over to places like this, and guys like you eat it right up. Some people can't snap out of it, they MUST follow, whether it be Ray Franz, Bill Bowen or Simon Green, they MUST follow. And with that comes blindness, not only must they follow, but they must eat up the lies and betrayals, and other forms of dishonesty, without even taking a minute to take notice that once again they're being screwed, but yet another man. So, go ahead Simon, deny these charges, deny you ever said these things, and make me out to be a liar. Don't worry one bit, most if not all will believe every word you say.
Edited by - Simon on 25 November 2002 12:29:40
RevMalk

Now why am I being edited Simon??
I gave proof, and you take it down?
haha, wow, it gets even worse with you doesn't it?
Edited by - RevMalk on 25 November 2002 12:41:53
DannyBear

Reverend Pious,
At least you had the sense to take down that atrocious 'waving cross' before you completed your demolition work.
If there was any doubt about the forcefulness of Lone Wolf's observations in your regard, you have just put them to rest.
I hope Simon just ignores your blatant attempt to besmirch his name and the reputation of those who attend here. You are pathetic sir. Pathetic a the kindest term I could utilize to describe your agenda here.
A great heaving sigh of relief will come over this board, when you finally do take your leave. None to soon in my estimation.
Danny
Edited by - DannyBear on 25 November 2002 12:47:7

Lust For Glory Alienating The Majority?

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