Lust For Glory Alienating The Majority?

by Englishman 70 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse

• 

  teejay

  Bill screwed up, big time. -- Lone Wolf

  
  As far as I'm concerned, that's the only thing that needs to be said about the Franz/Bowen fiasco. Bill messed up.

  I still support the cause of silentlambs. Although I don't agree with my Brother Bowen 24/7, I have no problem forgiving him of his mistakes, and he's made some. He's done an admirable job advancing the cause of JW children at risk from predators in their midst at the Kingdom Hall... especially since the leadership in NY clearly doesn't give a damn about kids, only their image. It's been mentioned -- he's carried the ball very well on the foundation laid by others, not the least of whom live in Norway. Every time I've seen him interviewed he's kept his cool, been very informative... made me proud. He presents what I believe to be the facts with just the right amount of firmness AND fairness.

  Still, that doesn't give him the right to slander people and IMO that's what he did to Ray. OTOH, that's *all* he did to Ray. A little slander never hurt nobody. Hasn't hurt me. That I know of...

  Even so--and it's only my opinion--Ray wasn't harmed [b]in the least[b/] by the false allegations hurled in his direction. In his response to the charges (posted here by Amazing), Raymond Franz answered the insinuations made against him in stunningly superb fashion. For me, reading his words was like eating ice cream. His clarity of thought and eloquence served to fully rebut the inferences made against him and, to (in my view), served to fully dress-down one who is a newbie to the ex-JW experience. As far as I'm concerned, Ray's words that were posted here were and will forever remain a golden work of art. They are all I will ever need to hear relative to this unfortunate debacle.

  Yeah, it would be good if, one day, Bowen got around to at least first of all seeing that he did something wrong in what he say about Ray. After that, it would be a nice bit of icing on the cake if he went so far as to make amends. Hell... maybe he has, as much as I know.

  If he hasn't and never does, well... I guess that's cool, too. I've never met him and never talked to him but it seems to me that Bill has something in him that has two edges -- a drive that makes him who he is. One part of that drive is mostly praiseworthy, no doubt. It does a world of good for a whole bunch of people, most of 'em little who can't do for themselves. It makes him want to give up his entire life and focus on the needs of the unprotected -- when the little ones' own parents and so-called "shepherds" leave them in the lurch in times of great trouble.

  The flip-side of that good thing isn't so good... at least not all the time. Uh.... it makes Bill (and maybe all great people?) a little crazy. Truly crazy in spurts. Downright insane, sometimes. Considering the good he does, though, and THE KIND OF GOOD HE DOES, I can live with the bad part.

  I can live with Bill. And I have no problem supporting him and the cause of silentlambs.

  In the case of one Raymond Franz... Bill Bowen messed up--I definitely believe that--but it ain't the end of the world. Bill's fine. Ray's fine. And maybe there's an elder or two out there who, because of silentlambs, has started to think.
• 

  plmkrzy

  This thread has some excellent posts that make very good points. If only every single person would get it, it would be wonderful. Does crossing fingers really work?
• 

  Englishman

  Teejay,

  Superbly explained. The upside to all of this is that at least we all - well, most of us anyway, that is - know now that we are no where near as gullible as when we first became dubs. Bill' s work at SL, followed by a sizeable wrist-slapping from those who queried his attitude, al least indicates that we are not going to follow any charismatic leader figure.

  Englishman.
• 

  LoneWolf

  Sorry it has taken so long to get back to this. Please don't take that delay as meaning that I don't care or appreciate the comments you folks have written.

  RevMalk ---

  I'm not special, I have done nothing to deserve anything from anyone.

  I couldn't disagree with you more. We are all special in one way or another. All deserve the care and love of others. The trouble is that in this old world many, many don't get that love and/or don't know how to either receive or give it. Then again, so many of us are afraid of allowing ourselves to be vulnerable.

  Then again, there are few men in this world who know as well as I do of the exquisite value of a woman and of what is usually lost when they suffer what you have. But I will speak of that later.

  You have raised some highly important if not critical questions. I'm going to try to answer them then.

  waiting

  That's not true. Those "doddering old fools back in Brooklyn" aren't the power of the WTBTS - and anybody with sense knows it.

  Again, you aren't thinking. You're considering the legal and service departments, et. al. as being the real power. But who are they answerable to? Who are they deathly afraid of? Only one entity, and that's the GB, headed especially by Ted (Jackass) Jaracz. He's got everyone buffaloed. To not recognize that is to not appreciate either the power or extent of the mind-games being played back there.

  Those departments are nothing more than the tools that those old men wield to control everyone else. Should you find yourself being mugged, would you deal with the mugger, or the knife the mugger is using? If you deal with only the knife, the mugger will simply grab another weapon. To eliminate the problem, you take out the mugger. It's the same principle here.

  I dare say that almost all of us never put our "life on the line" for the xjw cause - or even child abuse. Did he EVER say his "life was on the line?" Don't think so. What he DID - and continues TO DO - is put his business, his family, his marriage, his free time, his working time, his wife's time, and I would imagine some of his children's time (which isn't spent with him) on the line. Much more than the vast majority of us have done, including myself.

  Uh --- maybe you'd best read that again. I wasn't saying anything at all about Bill or anyone else putting his life on the line. I was talking about me putting my life on the line, and the fact that I am still alive in spite of that. I've dealt with far rougher customers than he has, and lived to tell the tale. I'm not suggesting that he is somehow the lesser for that. I am saying that I know a little about the subject myself, otherwise I wouldn't still be alive.

  I get a kick out of you, and I don't mean that at all in a bad way. I like to tease gals like you and see if I can get a rise out of them. That, of course, is risky business, which of course, only adds to the fun. You remind me of the gal Siegfried brought in to do the accounts in James Herriot's books. Wish I could remember her name, darn it.

  ps: btw, I printed the Free Minds article by Mike Pence. Well worth discussing. And that doesn't mean just agreement.

  I'm not sure what you are talking about here. I submitted two articles to him that he put on his old xjw site, but haven't had the chance to see what's on his new one. (Sorry Mike, just too much going on.) Are you speaking of one of these? If so, I would appreciate your input, especially if "that doesn't mean just agreement." As I pointed out in the one, "What Is Truth?", one of the wellsprings of new knowledge is contrary thought.

  sf ---

  We all need to build each other with positive passion. Which also means, it's okay to express raw truth (which Tom-Lonewolf, has) to turn that passion of yours onto a positive course of ACTION.

  Thanks, Scally, for seeing that. That in a nutshell is where I am coming from. It doesn't matter what weapon you have, it depends on how it is used that counts. Some people can wreak havoc using only a little dust, while others could be given an H-bomb and succeed only in dropping it on their toe. No, Im not referring to Bill here.

  Englishman ---

  Malky Boy, you stay put, please, no grand exits needed, you have too much to offer.

  I wholeheartedly agree on this, Englishman, with the only exception being that I think you are accusing her of having the wrong plumbing.

  However, being that the English and the Americans are sort of like first cousins, we'd be happy to explain the difference if you'd like.

  Simon ---

  I can recommend drinking ... in fact, as a fellow forum admin you'll find it pretty soon becomes an indispensable tool for maintaining some sanity (hic)

  Come on out and join me for a day or two and I'll take you out slam dunking hornet's nests with me. You've never in your life experienced such a delicious adrenaline rush or felt more alive than after an evening of that. The added benefit is that there is no need for a "designated driver". Its marvelous for sharpening your reflexes too.

  LoneWolf

  Edited to put the apostrophes back in.

  Edited by - LoneWolf on 30 November 2002 4:49:51
• 

  waiting

  Now, Bill's done a fine job, and I'm glad for both him and the lambs. But at the same time, all he did is take on a bunch of doddering old fools back in Brooklyn, many of which need help wiping themselves. His life was never on the line. - lone wolf

  That's not true. Those "doddering old fools back in Brooklyn" aren't the power of the WTBTS - and anybody with sense knows it. - waiting

  Again, you aren't thinking. You're considering the legal and service departments, et. al. as being the real power. But who are they answerable to? Who are they deathly afraid of? Only one entity, and that's the GB, headed especially by Ted (Jackass) Jaracz. He's got everyone buffaloed. To not recognize that is to not appreciate either the power or extent of the mind-games being played back there. -lone wolf

  Those departments are nothing more than the tools that those old men wield to control everyone else. - lone wolf

  I actually was thinking & considering more than the legal & service departments. Even the local jw's know that there are secretaries who have nearly the same status as some of the GB (don't vote, however). There are also a group of men who aren't of the Anointed Class who are coming in as the "doddering old fools" die off - the WT article referred to them as "helpers" if memory serves properly. And yes.....I believe Legal Department carries a lot of weight. They would have to......look at all the fronts they're fighting in Court - from taxation, freedom of religion (or lack thereof) blood, rape, laws broken, civil liberties, etc.

  Perhaps I don't have a total view of the complete power structure of the WTBTS. But I would have a hard time swallowing the idea that The Only Power in the WTBTS is Jaracz. He may be the Main Power, but I truly doubt he's the Only Power. Otherwise, wouldn't it be just a hell of a lot more efficient to just have him killed? Voila.....no more power.

  Now, Bill's done a fine job, and I'm glad for both him and the lambs. But at the same time, all he did is take on a bunch of doddering old fools back in Brooklyn, many of which need help wiping themselves. His life was never on the line. - lone wolf

  In your initial post - you dismissively grouped the whole GB together as "doddering old fools" - no one person of the GB was an exception in your post. You didn't even mention The All Powerful Jaracz. If he is the GB, then you grouped him with the "doddering old fools."

  So, which is it?

  1. Did "all" Bowen do "is take on a bunch of doddering old fools in Brooklyn,...many of which need help in wiping their backsides"

  2. Did Bowen take on the The All Powerful Governing Body of the WTBTS headed by Lone Power Ted Jaracz and they all use powerful and extensive mind games over all their followers and who the Legal & Service Departments are answerable to and are deathly afraid of?

  Now, Bill's done a fine job, and I'm glad for both him and the lambs. But at the same time, all he did is take on a bunch of doddering old fools back in Brooklyn, many of which need help wiping themselves. His life was never on the line. - lone wolf

  Uh --- maybe you'd best read that again. I wasn't saying anything at all about Bill or anyone else putting his life on the line. I was talking about me putting my life on the line, - lone wolf

  If you would have articulated sufficiently in your inital post, I wouldn't have to read it again, now would I?

  Why would one deduce from your use of the words "Bill...him...all he did...His life" that you were actually referring to your life instead of "His life?" Or why didn't you just say "His life was never on the line, like I've put my life on the line." Well, when it's stated plainly for the reader, it does sound rather tacky, now doesn't it?

  It's not that hard to understand your words, Tom. Nor is it that hard to read the condescension behind the words you choose. So you enjoy "teasing" with me? Well, it's mutual - but would be more fun if you were succinct in your wording.

  Btw, my initial post about Mike Pence's article stated that it was in the Free Minds Journal which comes through the mail. Take care & enjoy the weekend.

  waiting

  edited to try & correct quote brackets

  Edited by - waiting on 30 November 2002 12:18:52
• 

  Jim Penton

  I haven't posted for days and will not participate on most threads because of the harsh and unkind language. However, I felt it worth while here because many of the comments were so solid. I understand Englishman's concerns and thank him for his kind remarks. When Bill Bowen started, I was all for him. However, I was shocked at his comments about Ray Franz and found my personal exchanges with him some of the wrost I have experienced in my life. But it is not personal anger or concern about his language that upset me the most. It was, rather, that I believe he is out in left field with his attack on the Watchtower. If one looks at the Flock book, it is obvious that the two or three witness rule as stated by the Society is not the primary problem. It is the failure to implement that policy properly in the way that they usually do with respect to other sexual misconduct. It is, quite simply, that they are corrupt and deal exactly like the Inquisition did. After all, judicial committees are inquisitions in a legal sense.

  Beyond this, I am deeply concerned that were Bill to be put in court, his lack of moderation would allow Watchtower lawyers to have him for breakfast. For example, there is no way that anyone can prove that there are more cases of pedophilia among Jehovah's Witnesses than any other religion. We don't have the data, and all the shouting and screaming that Bill Bowen and people like Hawkshaw and his tribe do will not make it so. How could anyone do a study, not only of Jehovah's Witnesses, but of other religions as well? So what I fear is that (a) Bill will make such a jackass of himself that he will discredit silentlambs completely and (b) he and those like him may well set some very bad legal precedents. Finally, and this is not particularly relevant to whether he is doing good or bad, I think he is on a terrible ego trip that has alienated many, many serious ex-JWs. In other words what I am saying is that Bill Bowen is acting too much like the late, unlamented Senator Joe McCarthy of Wisconsin who saw Communists under every bed and homosexuals in every bed in Washington.

  Jim Penton
• 

  Farkel

  RevMalk,

  : This particular thread I was AGREEING with Farkel, even after he called minimus an idiot, then he turned around (because he thought I was DISAGREEING with him, and started calling me filthy names (anyone can check the thread and see clearly what happened)

  What specific "filthy names" did I call you, since it is so "clear" to you that I called you them?

  Name them and name them in order, please. Oh, and define "filthy", too. Be specific. That is to say, show how "filthy" is different from "not filthy" and please show why "filthy" is "filthy" whereas "not filthy" is "not filthy". In order to do this you must come up with a precise definition for "filthy." Inquiring minds need to know these things, you idiot. Is "idiot" a "filthy" word? If so, why is it a "filthy" word. Explain your answers in full, you whining idiot.

  Farkel
• 

  RevMalk

  Not to keep this going, but here's a few, and yes, in my opinion calling anyone names is filthy. Not that I haven't been guilty myself. Here's a few I can point out easily enough:

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=40788&site=3&page=3

  It's this stuff I find useless.....just my opinion.

  Carry on.

  edited - To remove Farkel's 'F' words by request. Sorry, I didn't realize I shoudn't be quoting bad words. Honest!

  Edited by - RevMalk on 17 December 2002 14:18:41
• 

  Englishman

  Rev Malk,

  Normally, those F words would be deleted. However, you appear to be answering a challenge made to you by Farkel, so mabe it would be a good idea to reference his alleged remarks with a source?

  Englishman.
• 

  RevMalk

  Englishman,

  I'm not trying to challenge anyone. BELIEVE me, I want some peace a quite. I just noticed the reply was here from Farkel from way back, so I thought I'd answer his question. So, I hope everyone understands that's all I was doing, I have no interest in continuing this controversy or any others for that matter. I've had my fill :)

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.aspx?id=40788&site=3&page=3

  edited to note that since I'm deleting the 'F' words, I wanted to make sure everyone also knew that the 'F' words in my post were quoted from him, and not used by me :)

  Edited by - RevMalk on 17 December 2002 14:15:48