by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
31 pages now fella's! Wow!
Ya know...if Jesus hadn't come along......this debate wouldn't be goin on! He messed it all up!
Before he came there was no problem for everyone to believe in one God. Along comes Jesus and we get this. Dang it!
Had Jesus remained a MYTHICAL FIGURE LIKE MOST OF THE BELIEVERS SAW HIM.....this wouldn't be a problem.
The Roman Church decided he was REALLY a man who existed. .....but you guys wouldn't know anything about that now would ya?
Herk,
With all the many good arguments you offered the picture in which you say non-trinitarians do not see Jesus as the glorious half man and half God hybrid is not one of them. It is a poorly worded statement that does not help your case. The scriptures do teach that the Nature of Jesus is both Human and Non-Human since His resurrection and He is now entitled to both natures to use as He sees fit at least until the 1000 years ends. This is an area where Unitarians have difficulty, yet the scriptures speak of Jesus as the man that will return as such but also show that He posses a non-human nature as in His appearance to Paul.
Joseph
Dakota, I have said nothing out of hatred, I'm sorry if stating the truth of the Bible is so offensive to you. And because I stick to the Bible only, you call me a religous bigot.
By refusing to believe the proper interpretation John 1:1 (and many other passages), you have openly denied Scripture. Your problem is that you pick and choose what to believe, you don't take all Scripture as whole, comparing Scripture with Scripture.
You said I "blindly follow the doctrines of men."
Name one doctrine I have stated that I haven't backed up with Scripture.
You said I "run to what a translator says is proper in a single out dated language Bible." A.T. Roberson was only one the most respected Greek Scholars in the world in his day. He was a great authority on this language. I think I'd rather trust his interpretation of John 1:1 than yours.
Calling the book "outdated" is a meaningless claim.
The truth is, Dakota, if something in the Bible doesn't make sense to you, you dismiss it. If John 1:1 says that the Word was God, you say it cannot be simply because you don't understand it.
Actually Gumby, it wasn't so much Jesus that screwed it all up as it was those who came along right after him and took over. Of course, Constantine didn't help much by making Christianity the state religion and allowing the blending of the two beliefs, pagan and Christian.
Whether or not Jesus actually existed is still a matter of debate, but it was those who decided he was worth worship that really screwed it all up.
For SwedishChef, since he still seems to have a problem in scriptural comprehension;
1 John 4:9. In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
14. And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Romans 6:23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 3:34. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
35. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.
Acts 10:42. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Simply put, salvation come FROM God, but THROUGH Jesus;
John 14:6. Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Clearly, an intercessory role, not the predominant one.
Lew W
"Whether or not Jesus actually existed is still a matter of debate, but it was those who decided he was worth worship that really screwed it all up."
Dakota, your not even sure if Jesus existed?
The truth is, Dakota, if something in the Bible doesn't make sense to you, you dismiss it. If John 1:1 says that the Word was God, you say it cannot be simply because you don't understand it.
SwedishChef,
The Word was a non-human Being. Jesus was a human Being the only human being in fact begotten of the Father. This is because the Word actually created man but the Father caused the Word to become a human personally and thus Jesus was the only begotten (not created) human Son of the Father. But your task is to prove that Jesus is also true God and one Being with God. John does not say this nor does he include a Holy Spirit at such a beginning with the Word supposedly an essential Person of God. John does not even use the more literal expression the Son is God that Trinitarians use.
John 1:1 the key text for all Trinitarians does not say this human Son is God does it, nor does it detail Trinitarian though in any way. What John does do is show that the Word was a separate Being entirely from God and at one time was with God (not in God or the same God) and would in time leave God and become fully human as a human Son of God. And did I not show how the expression Son of God applies to many creatures both human and otherwise that are faithful and justified? And John does not say that the Word was God to the God this Word was with. No! John simply identifies this Word as God to the world of mankind under discussion described as coming into existence at this beginning. In fact we learn from Johns Gospel that this Word that became flesh is destined to be King (God) over this same human race. Joseph
What the Bible says:
John 10:30 "I and my Father are one."
What Herk Reads
John 10:30 " I and my Father are one in will."
What the Bible says:
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
What Herk Reads:
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was not God."
What the Bible says:
John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made."
What Herk Reads
John 1:3 "All things except for the Father were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made, except for the Father."
What the Bible says:
Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
What Herk Reads
Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, a god, a father in a certain sense, The Prince of Peace."
What the Bible says:
Genesis 11:6,8a "And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one,....Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth:"
What Herk Reads
Genesis 11:6,8a "And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one,....Go to, let the angels and I go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. So the LORD and his angels scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth:"
What the Bible says:
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
What Herk Reads:
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is a lord, and a king: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
What the Bible says:
John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him... he that hath seen me hath seen the Father"
What Herk Reads
John 14:9 "Jesus saith unto him... he that hath seen me hath seen the will of the Father"
What the Bible says:
Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:"
What Herk Reads
Philippians 2:6 "Who, being in the form of a god, thought it not robbery to be lesser than God:"
What the Bible says:
Zechariah 2:10,11 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, I come, and I will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and I will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent me unto thee."
What Herk Reads
Zechariah 2:10,11 "Sing and rejoice, O daughter of Zion: for, lo, the Messiah comes, and he will dwell in the midst of thee, saith the Lord. And many nations shall be joined to the Lord in that day, and shall be my people: and he will dwell in the midst of thee, and thou shalt know that the Lord of hosts hath sent him unto thee."
What the Bible says:
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
What Herk reads:
Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, a god with us.
The truth is, Dakota, if something in the Bible doesn't make sense to you, you dismiss it. If John 1:1 says that the Word was God, you say it cannot be simply because you don't understand it.
LOL, Swed, still baiting, huh? You have the balls to say the above after you deny such things as;
John 17:3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
John 12:49. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
50. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
John 14:28. Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
John 20:17. Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 13: 16. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.
You show your ignorance and inability to research or think for yourself by ignoring Jesus' own words and instead, clinging to an obvious mistranslation, or, a confusing one, at minimum. Instead of simply turning on the Born Again Fundamentalist ignore switch, I dug and reseaerched and found out why they don't jive.
But, you continue clinging to your Platoistic, Catholic inspired doctrine. As for me, I will listen to Jesus' own words.
What does it matter to you if anyone believes in Jesus? You don't believe in him enough to listen to his words anyways.
Ignorance is bliss.
Lew W
SwedishChef,
You said something interesting back on page 18:
This will be a rather lengthy post, and probably my last one on the subject.
But you keep going on and on with basically the same points as when you started about 30 pages ago. I'd find you more interesting, but you're like a bull in a china shop. You don't stop and really pay attention to what your opponents are saying. You just keep plodding and trudging along as if they had said nothing. For the most part, it seems to me, they do analyze your posts and deal with the points you try to make. What's disappointing to me about your responses is that you often simply brush aside some very reasonable objections to what you're saying. It's as if evidence against the Trinity ought to be treated like the pseudo-evidence raised against the Bible. There is a big difference. Just as you have, I've tested the evidence against the Bible and found it lacking in any credibility. I've also tested the Trinity and found that the evidence for it is likewise faulty. I wish you were willing to open your mind a little, just long enough to sift and weigh the evidence against the Trinity, but you leave the impression that there's not a chance of that ever happening.
fjtoth
