The Trinity
by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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UnDisfellowshipped
Herk said:
Here again is evidence of obstinancy. It is your interpretation of Revelation 5 and that's all that says the Lamb received equal honour, etc. with the Father.
Revelation 5:13: And every creature which is in Heaven, and on the Earth, and under the Earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying, "Blessing, and honor, and glory, and power, be to Him who sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb forever and ever.
So, somewhere in between "Him who sits on the throne" & "and to the Lamb", the "Blessing, Honor, and Glory" changed to a lesser degree for the Lamb?
Herk said:
God doesn't pray to anyone
Show the Scriptures.
God is immortal. He is indestructible and not subject to death.
You ignore what most Trinitarians actually believe.
God the Son ADDED Human Nature to His Nature of God, and came to Earth.
God the Son's HUMAN NATURE DIED -- God the Son's Nature of God NEVER went out-of-existence.
When God the Son was Resurrected, He TOOK BACK His Human Nature.
One of the main purposes that I posted that "Unitarian Beliefs" Post above, was to show that it is NOT a good idea to try and use generalizations such as "typical unitarian" or "typical trinitarian".
You see what I did in that Post was combine several different unitarians' beliefs into one Thread, sort of like what certain people have been doing on this Thread about trinitarians' beliefs.
It was not a good idea for me to put several different unitarians' beliefs into one Thread, just like it's not a good idea to do that with trinitarians' beliefs.
I have kept an open mind the entire time, and I have read most of the posts here (not all of them - I don't have that much free time), and you (and others) have made some valid points, and so have the Trinitarians.
Now, I am going to post some apologies (I guess you could call this a "Matthew 18:15 Meeting" LOL).
I am not a good example of a Christian.
I am not a Bible expert.
Do I make mistakes? Tons.
Do I make errors? Lots.
Do I sometimes post incorrect information? Yes. I always apologize, and I always thank the person who pointed out the incorrect info.
I try my best to be a follower and slave of Christ.
I try my best to love everyone, and treat everyone like I want them to treat me.
I fail at this quite often, unfortunately.
The most important thing in studying the Scriptures is to find out the TRUTH, and having a closer relationship with God, and to learn how to better imitate Christ.
Those are my only goals in discussing Scriptures.
It is a very serious matter to distort or twist Scriptures.
The Bible warns against doing that in any way.
If I ever post any incorrect information about the Bible, I am extremely, extremely sorry, and I want to be told.
That is why in most all of my Threads, I tell everyone to check with the Scriptures, and make sure that what I say is true, and if it is not true, DO NOT BELIEVE IT.
The Scriptures are the Holy Inspired Word of God, and I would never, ever, ever intentionally lie or deceive anyone about the Scriptures.
I would rather DIE than to ever lie or deceive anyone about the Scriptures. I would deserve to burn in Hell if I ever intentionally lie or decieve anyone about the Scriptures.
I may have the wrong viewpoint, and I may not use good logic 100% of the time, and I may have the wrong understanding of certain Scriptures, but I can tell you that I am not intentionally deceiving or lying!
What motive would I have to intentionally lie about the Scriptures? To gain people into my religion or church?
I do not even go to any church at the moment.
I apologize if I have upset or offended anyone by any of my comments explaining my beliefs. It was not intentional.
I apologize if I have mis-represented anyone else's beliefs. It was not intentional.
I have tried my best to refrain from any name-calling, and I will continue to do this.
I do not like arguing, I would much prefer reasoning or discussing.
I really do not hold any grudge with you Herk, and I am not upset with you.
I send my Christian love to you Herk, and I pray that you have peace and grace and truth and love from God.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 7 December 2002 5:34:33
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 7 December 2002 5:35:29
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LittleToe
fjtoth:
The "God in a box" statement was concerning comprehending God and what He is. The scriptures, that you cite, refer to knowing God, as in having a relationship with Him.Herk:
I'm only pleased to see that no-one has bothered to throw some similarly offensive anti-unitarian cartoons about this site.If you truly view yourself as a Christian, why would you seek to offend your Trinitarian brothers, in such a manner? After all, salvation isn't founded on your viewpoint of theology, but on your relationship with Christ. Leave the bigotry with the JW's, where it belongs.
Edited by - LittleToe on 7 December 2002 7:45:15
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herk
UnDisfellowshipped,
Thanks for your message that seems to reach out for a handshake of peace. You ask a few questions, so here is my response.
Comparing "worship" with "praise, honor and glory" is like comparing apples and oranges. Only God is to be worshipped in the highest sense of the word. It's true that proskuneo is the word for worship in Revelation 5:14 and that word can be used with reference to homage even to men. However, when the account uses the word strictly in relationship with God and no other, it isn't truly fair and honest to apply it also to the Lamb. In the context, both God and the Lamb are rendered praise, honor and glory. The account specifically says so. But it does not say or even hint that both receive worship.
You asked me to "show the Scriptures" that prove "God doesn't pray to anyone." Prayer is an often discussed topic in the Bible, yet there isn't a single passage that even hints that God prays to anyone. This is proof enough to the vast majority of Bible students that God doesn't pray. It should be proof enough for any reasonable person. In view of all that the Bible teaches about prayer, many sincere Bible students believe that it borders on blasphemy to even think that God prays to anyone.
That is one of the evils of the Trinitarian dogma. Since Christ prayed, it opens up the thought that God the Father also prays. That is exactly the kind of thinking that pleases the Devil. He just thrives on anything that degrades God and that paints him as lesser than the awesome God who is above all others in position of authority.
When I wrote that God is immortal, indestructible and not subject to death, I was simply quoting the Bible. It boggles my mind that your comment on that is, "You ignore what most Trinitarians actually believe." If quoting Scripture contradicts what Trinitarians believe, that should tell you that something is awfully wrong with the teaching.
You wrote:
God the Son ADDED Human Nature to His Nature of God, and came to Earth.
That is not taught in the Bible. It is a teaching invented by imperfect and fallible men. Before accepting it, any truthseeker should test it with the Bible. A thorough analysis of the Bible will clearly show that it nowhere contains expressions or concepts like "God the Son" or "human nature of God."
God the Son's HUMAN NATURE DIED -- God the Son's Nature of God NEVER went out-of-existence.
Such a statement makes a mockery of Christ's agony and death. It leads to the devil-inspired conclusion that Christ did not really suffer and die, that it was all a big show. There isn't the slightest suggestion of this false theory anywhere in prophecies or in the narratives concerning the Messiah. So what grounds would any lover of truth have for believing it?
You see what I did in that Post was combine several different unitarians' beliefs into one Thread, sort of like what certain people have been doing on this Thread about trinitarians' beliefs.
Again the comparison is like apples and oranges. Trinitarians do not dare believe differently than other Trinitarians. If they do, they are almost immediately branded as unorthodox, heretical or spiritually illiterate. Those who formed the doctrine over centuries of time carefully weighed and measured their every word and phrase. The teaching is now embodied in creeds that have been cautiously formulated.
On the other hand, there is complete freedom and great variety among unitarians. Things do, however, get as rigid and strict as Trinitarianism does in denominations like the JWs, Christadelphians, Mormons and Oneness Pentecostals, all of whom vary greatly in their teachings on the origin of Christ. Obviously, they can't all be right either. The problem with just about every brand of "Christian" religion is that people are prone to follow men instead of doing their own independent reading and study of the Bible. While unitarianism is one of the predominant themes of the Bible, many unitarians are as uninformed and misled as their Trinitarian brethren.
That is why in most all of my Threads, I tell everyone to check with the Scriptures, and make sure that what I say is true, and if it is not true, DO NOT BELIEVE IT.
Searching back through all your posts, I couldn't find a single one where you said anything of the kind.
I have kept an open mind the entire time.
I find that very difficult to believe. Most of the time you argued strenuously and even stubbornly for the Trinitarian position. I saw absolutely no evidence of an "open mind." But I will take your word for it, with the idea that your assertions and contentions perhaps did not always match what you were thinking.
I appreciate your expressions of friendship and well-wishes. Be assured that I wish the same for you. In proportion to your love for God and his truth, I pray he will bless you richly in your progress as a Christian.
Herk
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herk
LittleToe,
I doubt you would call Jesus a bigot. Yet, he minced no words in denouncing the scribes and Pharisees for their heavy leaning upon tradition instead of abiding by the Holy Scriptures. We have scribes and Pharisees today who go by other names. Still, they do the same thing. They ignore the Scriptures and lead others astray. They deserve to be exposed by every legal and honourable method that is available.
Jesus should have remained silent if your statement is valid that salvation does not depend upon theology. Apparently the way to salvation is narrower and harder to follow than most people realize. While many in the past were willing even to give up their lives in defense of their unitarian beliefs based upon the Bible, there are those today who would say they died for a foolish cause. I happen to be one who doesn't think so.
Additionally, I think it is a lack of genuine sincerity that prompts a person to criticize unitarians for their aggressiveness while closing his or her eyes to the profusely mean-spirited statements made by Trinitarians.
Cartoon editorials are a long-honoured method of exposing falsehood and clarifying truth. They only offend those who deserve to feel hurt as a consequence of their wrongdoing and wrong teaching.
herk
Edited by - herk on 7 December 2002 9:42:37
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fjtoth
LittleToe,
You are only partially correct when you state that the texts I quoted speak of having a relationship with God. It is absurd to think that we can have a true relationship with someone we hardly know factually. To have a relationship with God, we need to know who he is and who we are dealing with.
fjtoth
Edited by - fjtoth on 7 December 2002 9:39:58
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fjtoth
Edited by - fjtoth on 7 December 2002 9:40:29
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DakotaRed
You still haven't been able to refute Isaiah 9:6, and denying the Trinity on the basis that it's pagan still doesnt refute it.
All the refutations necessary have been given from Jesus' own words and by the fact that Jews never have believed in any sort of multiple or triune gods. All the vague and various translations of scriptures do not change the fact that Jesus clearly identified himself as the Son, not God and that the Bible is strictly monotheistic.
While various translations do vary as to their translation of many vague scriptures in the OT, I have yet to find any Bible that has Jesus calling the Father anything other than "the ONLY True God" at John 17:3.
"....The "Mighty God" of Isaiah 9:6 does indeed mean , as defined by the Hebrew Lexicon, "divine hero, reflecting the divine majesty." (Brown, Driver and Briggs, Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, pg 42). It is precisely that same messianic sense of the term "God" which allows the Psalmist to address the King as "God," without inviting us to think there are now two members of the Godhead. The quotation of Psalm 45:6 in Hebrews 1:8 brings that same Messianic sense use of the word God into the New Testament. We should not misunderstand this very Jewish use of titles. It is a serious mistake to think that the Messiah has now stepped into the space reserved for the One God, the Father. However exalted the position of Jesus and despite his function as God's representative, the strict unipersonal monotheism of Israel's faith is never compromised by any New Testament writer." (The Doctrine of the Trinity, Christiaity's Self Inflicted Wound, Buzzard and Hunting, pg 76).
1 John 4:15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. (KJV)
Nowhere does the Bible say to confess Jesus as God, but always the Son.
No translation I have found has Jesus saying anything other that identifying the Father as the Only true God at John 17:3.
Believe as you wish and argue all you want. Since many translators have interjected their own bias's into all translations, I will stick with what Jesus himself says. When accused of making himself equal to God, he clearly refuted that too;
John 5:18. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
19. Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
20. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.
22. For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: (KJV)How anybody can claim to follow Jesus and believe in Jesus' words and deny all the times he clearly identified himself as subordinate to the Father, yet also believe in a trinity, is beyond me.
As I have said before and as many have echoed, Jesus taught love, not any sort of trinity. Belief or non-belief in a triune god discussions always become heated and usually, it is the trinitarian side that gets even more agititated as their doctrine is challenged.
Having spent many years researching and looking into claims of both sides, actually seeking to find the trinity, I remain firmly entrenched in my view that the trinity is a false doctrine, placed there by man shortly after Jesus' death and most likely, in order to ease the transition from paganism to christianity. The bloody and barbaric history of Christianity afterwards does nothing to ease my discomfort with claiming to be a Christian.
Believe as you will, follow who you will. I prefer to listen to Jesus' own words, myself.
Lew W
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LittleToe
Herk:
Scribes and Pharisees
"Do as they say, not as they do"? Their theology wasn't the main problem, it was their lack of love.
While many in the past were willing even to give up their lives in defense of their unitarian beliefs
Likewise for their Trinitarian beliefs, I think you'll find. But most importantly, most men were martyred for their Christian beliefs. I think I'd rather be martyred for that than for standing up for dogma, for love than bigotry.
lack of genuine sincerity
Barbed innuendo wont win any brownie points. You may doubt my sincerity and love, but that wont make you right, either
Cartoon editorials are a long-honoured method
And have been as misused and abused, as often as used properly.
Your posting times are kinda close for two people sharing a computer, herk.
Edited by - LittleToe on 7 December 2002 11:34:33